PS4 Pro: The Worlds Most Powerful Console (Hype begins)

[darkknightkryta]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-xbox-scorpio-console-will-deliver-really-true-/1100-6445394/

Lol, the Scorpio not only offers "true 4K", but "really true 4K".

So I'm guessing the word's getting out that the checkerboard way of scaling is pretty close to native 4k and that they're starting to worry?

[Aura7541]

So I'm guessing the word's getting out that the checkerboard way of scaling is pretty close to native 4k and that they're starting to worry?

Well, there was this video from Digital Foundry and Leadbetter starts talking about the checkboard-4K around 17:50. He said that the drawbacks of checkerboarding takes some time to discern even when he was staring mere inches away from the screen (around 20:40). He mentioned the checkerboard-4K vs native-4K comparison from Days Gone around 21:40 and said that it takes quite a bit of effort to see the differences.

So while checkerboarding will never match native-4K, it's proving to be a very effective alternative and developers can also focus on other aspects like anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, etc.

[darkknightkryta]

Well, there was this video from Digital Foundry and Leadbetter starts talking about the checkboard-4K around 17:50. He said that the drawbacks of checkerboarding takes some time to discern even when he was staring mere inches away from the screen (around 20:40). He mentioned the checkerboard-4K vs native-4K comparison from Days Gone around 21:40 and said that it takes quite a bit of effort to see the differences.

So while checkerboarding will never match native-4K, it's proving to be a very effective alternative and developers can also focus on other aspects like anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, etc.

That's the whole trick I suppose.  A non-blur anti-aliasing with this checkerboard method is going to give you a pretty dang good image quality.  I mean, you wanna get rid of the jaggies while keeping a sharp image, which is what higher resolution tries to give you.  The PS4 Pro method will probably work out better than the brute force 4k method that Microsoft is going to employ.  Not to mention high end video cards have trouble with 4k, so that's going to be interesting to look at when Scorpio releases.

[Aura7541]

That's the whole trick I suppose.  A non-blur anti-aliasing with this checkerboard method is going to give you a pretty dang good image quality.  I mean, you wanna get rid of the jaggies while keeping a sharp image, which is what higher resolution tries to give you.  The PS4 Pro method will probably work out better than the brute force 4k method that Microsoft is going to employ.  Not to mention high end video cards have trouble with 4k, so that's going to be interesting to look at when Scorpio releases.

We don't know for sure if Microsoft will only go with the brute force method. However, if MS wants to use an "almost as good as native-4K" alternative, they have to come up with it themselves since Sony probably has a patent on the checkerboarding method and it's built into the hardware. If that's the case, then MS can't just go to AMD and say, "Hey, give us the GPU the Pro is using, only with more teraflops".

[Mmm_fish_tacos]

We don't know for sure if Microsoft will only go with the brute force method. However, if MS wants to use an "almost as good as native-4K" alternative, they have to come up with it themselves since Sony probably has a patent on the checkerboarding method and it's built into the hardware. If that's the case, then MS can't just go to AMD and say, "Hey, give us the GPU the Pro is using, only with more teraflops".

MS can't bruteforce it with only 6tf. They'll have more native that ps4 pro, but not by much.

[darkknightkryta]

We don't know for sure if Microsoft will only go with the brute force method. However, if MS wants to use an "almost as good as native-4K" alternative, they have to come up with it themselves since Sony probably has a patent on the checkerboarding method and it's built into the hardware. If that's the case, then MS can't just go to AMD and say, "Hey, give us the GPU the Pro is using, only with more teraflops".

From what I understand Sony did patent it.

[Aura7541]

MS can't bruteforce it with only 6tf. They'll have more native that ps4 pro, but not by much.

I remember at one point, Cerny said that you need 8 teraflops minimum to render native-4K, so yeah you're right.

[the-pi-guy]

Technically it all depends on what devs decide to do with the processing.  
You could make a game with a resolution of 480p, that is more intensive than that 4k.  (That'd be a little unreasonable though.)  (I wonder how close that comparison would be to VizionEck and maybe Uncharted or something.    )

As a reasonable estimate for most current games, 8TF seems reasonable.  
But we will see how things hold up when PS5 comes along.  

I remember at one point, Cerny said that you need 8 teraflops minimum to render native-4K, so yeah you're right.

Mark Cerny: 8 TFlops Minimal Is Required To Render In Native 4K But This Is A Personal Estimate

[Aura7541]

Technically it all depends on what devs decide to do with the processing.  
You could make a game with a resolution of 480p, that is more intensive than that 4k.  (That'd be a little unreasonable though.)  (I wonder how close that comparison would be to VizionEck and maybe Uncharted or something.    )

As a reasonable estimate for most current games, 8TF seems reasonable.  
But we will see how things hold up when PS5 comes along.  

Mark Cerny: 8 TFlops Minimal Is Required To Render In Native 4K But This Is A Personal Estimate

I wonder how developers will utilize the PS5. Will they offer choices between native-4K and checkerboard-4K? Or will they just prioritize either native or checkerboard?

[the-pi-guy]

I wonder how developers will utilize the PS5. Will they offer choices between native-4K and checkerboard-4K? Or will they just prioritize either native or checkerboard?

Probably depends on how powerful it is.
I'd guess native.

[DerNebel]

Watch Dogs 2 also dropping more frames on Pro.

[Legend]

We don't know for sure if Microsoft will only go with the brute force method. However, if MS wants to use an "almost as good as native-4K" alternative, they have to come up with it themselves since Sony probably has a patent on the checkerboarding method and it's built into the hardware. If that's the case, then MS can't just go to AMD and say, "Hey, give us the GPU the Pro is using, only with more teraflops".

That patent (unless I'm wrong   ) has nothing to do with checkerboard rendering. It's talking about a way to brute force games to render at higher resolutions than the developers programed. IE you render the emulated game in its original 480p but render each frame 4 times with a slight shift to the camera matrix. Then it merges these renders to create a 960p frame.

Plus Ubisoft has been using checkerboard rendering in their games since at least Rainbow Six Siege. Sony might have their specific method patented but Microsoft while have no issues supporting their own checkerboard rendering on Scorpio.



With regards to native 4K, I think the age of "native" is over. Most PS1 games ran at 240p with 76,800 pixels so it made sense to treat every pixel as unique. Aliasing was impossible to not notice and the pixels were huge blurry messes. Nowadays though with 4k you have 8,294,400 pixels and most of those aren't that interesting. Most 4x4 clumps will mostly have the same color so why waste resources on them? BOLD yet not that BOLD prediction: <10% of PS5 AAA games will use a native rendering method like what past gens have used.

[Aura7541]

That patent (unless I'm wrong   ) has nothing to do with checkerboard rendering. It's talking about a way to brute force games to render at higher resolutions than the developers programed. IE you render the emulated game in its original 480p but render each frame 4 times with a slight shift to the camera matrix. Then it merges these renders to create a 960p frame.

Plus Ubisoft has been using checkerboard rendering in their games since at least Rainbow Six Siege. Sony might have their specific method patented but Microsoft while have no issues supporting their own checkerboard rendering on Scorpio.



With regards to native 4K, I think the age of "native" is over. Most PS1 games ran at 240p with 76,800 pixels so it made sense to treat every pixel as unique. Aliasing was impossible to not notice and the pixels were huge blurry messes. Nowadays though with 4k you have 8,294,400 pixels and most of those aren't that interesting. Most 4x4 clumps will mostly have the same color so why waste resources on them? BOLD yet not that BOLD prediction: <10% of PS5 AAA games will use a native rendering method like what past gens have used.

I see. I also did some more research and Quantum Break also utilizes checkerboarding, so MS can probably use what they learned from that game and implement it in the Scorpio.

I also think the age of "native" is over. If checkerboard-4K requires a lot less work than native-4K, then developers will obviously go with the more cost-effective option.

[ethomaz]

I see. I also did some more research and Quantum Break also utilizes checkerboarding, so MS can probably use what they learned from that game and implement it in the Scorpio.

I also think the age of "native" is over. If checkerboard-4K requires a lot less work than native-4K, then developers will obviously go with the more cost-effective option.

That won't happen for most hardware.

We will move to ray tracing render instead rasterizer in the future.

These checkerboards and retroconstruction will be used only in weaker hardware.

Developers will push the most eye candy tech no matter the hardware.

[DerNebel]

So BF1 runs way better in MP on Pro. Weren't MP games supposed to not get boosts in framerate on the Pro, lol?

With this I really so no more excuse for no Bloodborne Pro patch. Then again I wouldn't want a halfassed patch for BB, I'd want that game to run at 60 on the Pro, really not sure if they can even do that.