Horizon Zero Dawn Review Thread 89 OC (86 reviews), 89 MC (108 reviews)

[DerNebel]

Wasn't the main criticism of Marvel was that the diversity was forced? I recall critics mentioning how Marvel was more concerned about the race and gender of its characters more than aspects such as character background, development, and personality. I mean if you want to generalize GG as nothing more than angry nerds, then be my guest. However, a generalization is a generalization. Your conclusion is based on only a few data points rather than an extensive sample size.

Also, some more investigation will reveal that it wasn't GG that caused Marvel to drop some of its comics. What if I told you that it was actually the SJWs that caused Marvel to change its direction? What it I told you it was the SJWs, not GG that started #DeleteMarvel? Basically, the demographic Marvel tried to pander to has turned its back, so it's pretty obvious why Marvel canceled comics that appealed to that particular demographic.

Anyways, this will be my one and only comment since this is too off-topic, but I recommend that you refrain from over-generalizing as well as investigate the context because the picture is significantly different from what you're painting.

bolded: Isn't that always the criticism? Horizon is being criticized for the exact same thing, that "SJW" ruined the game by "forcing" all the diversity.

You really seem to have missed my point with the Marvel thing, I don't really care why these comics were cancelled. The point is that it is celebrated that they are cancelled, because they were "PC SJW pandering".

[Aura7541]

bolded: Isn't that always the criticism? Horizon is being criticized for the exact same thing, that "SJW" ruined the game by "forcing" all the diversity.

You really seem to have missed my point with the Marvel thing, I don't really care why these comics were cancelled. The point is that it is celebrated that they are cancelled, because they were "PC SJW pandering".

But I don't see the diversity forced on Horizon at all. Reviews are saying that Aloy as well as other characters are fleshed out well. That's the most important part: are the characters, especially the protagonist, worth giving a dang? Diversity is not important to me because it's aspects such as gameplay, characters, and story that make the game, not the race (unless it's used as a plot device like in Nioh). I'm Asian, but you don't see me complaining about how Aloy is white. Her race is nothing of my concern. Her backstory, personality, and development are.

I don't know now you can determine that GamerGate is criticizing Horizon for being diverse. As I said before, it's a generalization. You only based your conclusion on a few data points and extrapolated like crazy from there. Like there are GGers who deride Horizon for allegedly pandering to SJWs, there are also GGers who don't see it that way. See my previous example of #DumpStarWars vs MundaneMatt. So how do you know which side is representative of all of GG? I suggest reading Raven's response.

Also why do you care so much about the cancellation of comics from Marvel being celebrated? Do you really think Marvel caved because of "angry nerds"? Marvel is a business and it doesn't give a dang who it's pandering to as long as it makes money. I think that's the main point out of the whole Marvel situation. Those SJW pandering comics are cancelled because the demographic was not buying them. The SJW audience did not back up its talk and the market has spoken.

[Xevross]

I think the point is that there's some idiots out there using their racist and sexist points of view to shame on horizon. We can all agree on that and we can all agree that those people are yucky ducks

They are definitely in a tiny minority though. I see a lot of concern about the game around the internet and most is from distrust of reviewers and of Guerilla. I've seen a lot of comments saying it's a Sony game so obviously reviewers will be super positive and they're going to wait for the 'real' gamers to try it.

Obviously, by launch, those people will realise that it is a great game. They're the kind of people that trust the Youtubers they watch and the vast majority of Youtubers will love it

[Aura7541]

I think the point is that there's some idiots out there using their racist and sexist points of view to shame on horizon. We can all agree on that and we can all agree that those people are yucky ducks

They are definitely in a tiny minority though. I see a lot of concern about the game around the internet and most is from distrust of reviewers and of Guerilla. I've seen a lot of comments saying it's a Sony game so obviously reviewers will be super positive and they're going to wait for the 'real' gamers to try it.

Obviously, by launch, those people will realise that it is a great game. They're the kind of people that trust the Youtubers they watch and the vast majority of Youtubers will love it

Yeah, I definitely agree. This is similar to the shame Rebel Media tried to pull with #DumpStarWars, but the audience thought Rogue One was great quality and loved it.

[DerNebel]

But I don't see the diversity forced on Horizon at all. Reviews are saying that Aloy as well as other characters are fleshed out well. That's the most important part: are the characters, especially the protagonist, worth giving a dang? Diversity is not important to me because it's aspects such as gameplay, characters, and story that make the game, not the race (unless it's used as a plot device like in Nioh). I'm Asian, but you don't see me complaining about how Aloy is white. Her race is nothing of my concern. Her backstory, personality, and development are.

I don't know now you can determine that GamerGate is criticizing Horizon for being diverse. As I said before, it's a generalization. You only based your conclusion on a few data points and extrapolated like crazy from there. Like there are GGers who deride Horizon for allegedly pandering to SJWs, there are also GGers who don't see it that way. See my previous example of #DumpStarWars vs MundaneMatt. So how do you know which side is representative of all of GG? I suggest reading Raven's response.

Also why do you care so much about the cancellation of comics from Marvel being celebrated? Do you really think Marvel caved because of "angry nerds"? Marvel is a business and it doesn't give a dang who it's pandering to as long as it makes money. I think that's the main point out of the whole Marvel situation. Those SJW pandering comics are cancelled because the demographic was not buying them. The SJW audience did not back up its talk and the market has spoken.

1st paragraph: Ok? I wasn't talking about you, so I don't really know why you're telling me this.

2nd paragraph: I'm generalizing in the same way that the Gamergate crew is generalizing "SJW's". Of course I know that not every single person that considers themself a supporter of Gamergate is up in arms about Horizon. But I've seen it brought up enough times already that I think it's fair to see this as a belief that is not uncommonly held among this crew and that it's decently pushed as well. I saw this on Gaf earlier, but look at the Gamefaqs board on Horizon for instance, the SJW discussions pretty much dominate the rest.

Horizon: Zero Dawn Message Board for PlayStation 4 - GameFAQs

Same with KotakuinAction, which is the self described "almost-official Gamergate subreddit", everything I've seen on that place about Horizon has also been about SJW's ruining it and the SJW and paid off media actually covering up how shame the game is to fit their agenda.

3rd paragraph: No, I don't think Marvel caved into nerds. I'm using the celebration of the cancellation of these comics as an example to proof my point. It's a highly upvoted thread, which is about nothing but celebrating that something that didn't appeal to them and they didn't like failed. Imagine Horizon failed and people were celebrating, because it was "ruined by SJW's anyways". Imagine a niche japanese game series you like was stopped due to underperforming at the market and people celebrated it because they didn't like the series. That's the equivalent to what's happening here.

[the-pi-guy]

Lol.  
Clicked on the bottom one: People kinda need to chill out about the SJW narrative of this game
First comment:
"Propaganda needs to be called out"
A female character = propaganda.  
Wow, that's ridiculous.  

[the-pi-guy]

Lol they think she looks like the guy here...

[Aura7541]

1st paragraph: Ok? I wasn't talking about you, so I don't really know why you're telling me this.

2nd paragraph: I'm generalizing in the same way that the Gamergate crew is generalizing "SJW's". Of course I know that not every single person that considers themself a supporter of Gamergate is up in arms about Horizon. But I've seen it brought up enough times already that I think it's fair to see this as a belief that is not uncommonly held among this crew and that it's decently pushed as well. I saw this on Gaf earlier, but look at the Gamefaqs board on Horizon for instance, the SJW discussions pretty much dominate the rest.

Horizon: Zero Dawn Message Board for PlayStation 4 - GameFAQs

Same with KotakuinAction, which is the self described "almost-official Gamergate subreddit", everything I've seen on that place about Horizon has also been about SJW's ruining it and the SJW and paid off media actually covering up how shame the game is to fit their agenda.

3rd paragraph: No, I don't think Marvel caved into nerds. I'm using the celebration of the cancellation of these comics as an example to proof my point. It's a highly upvoted thread, which is about nothing but celebrating that something that didn't appeal to them and they didn't like failed. Imagine Horizon failed and people were celebrating, because it was "ruined by SJW's anyways". Imagine a niche japanese game series you like was stopped due to underperforming at the market and people celebrated it because they didn't like the series. That's the equivalent to what's happening here.

1st paragraph: It was to prove a point that as a GG supporter, I don't find Horizon's diversity to be forced. There are a lot of other people who share my sentiment.

2nd paragraph: How do you know that this is a vocal majority? Are those people actual GG supporters or are they using the Kotaku-in-action platform as a springboard to push their narrative since its a big subreddit and as you said, it's a highly upvoted thread? Reddit is big, sure, but it's not the entirety of the Internet. I've also seen people criticizing Horizon because the protagonist is white, but you don't see me saying SJWs are complaining about Horizon whitewashing Aloy. Both extremes are full of shame. However, they are the fringe minority.

3rd paragraph: Refer to my second paragraph. A vocal narrative is not necessarily the majority narrative.

[nnodley]

Lol they think she looks like the guy here...

WTF!! No fudgy words!   Not even close! Lol

[DerNebel]

1st paragraph: It was to prove a point that as a GG supporter, I don't find Horizon's diversity to be forced. There are a lot of other people who share my sentiment.

2nd paragraph: How do you know that this is a vocal majority? Are those people actual GG supporters or are they using the Kotaku-in-action platform as a springboard to push their narrative since its a big subreddit and as you said, it's a highly upvoted thread? Reddit is big, sure, but it's not the entirety of the Internet. I've also seen people criticizing Horizon because the protagonist is white, but you don't see me saying SJWs are complaining about Horizon whitewashing Aloy. Both extremes are full of shame. However, they are the fringe minority.

3rd paragraph: Refer to my second paragraph. A vocal narrative is not necessarily the majority narrative.

Dude, I'm sorry but what do you think Gamergate is? The Gamergate movement is dead. There is no silent majority that still even gives a shame about Gamergate. When I'm talking about the "Gamergate crew" then I'm talking about the people that still legitimately care about this shame to this day and still discuss it, among those that is the reaction to Horizon that I've seen. If you have some sources that represent the "real Gamergate" that dismiss these opinions, then feel free to share them with me, but currently I'm seeing non of that.

Meanwhile what I am seeing is another thread climbing up KotakuinAction's frontpage titled "Horizon Zero Dawn is a showcase of the damage feminism has done to gaming", I mean sure not everyone is agreeing with it, but I think it's pretty rich to be like "maybe those people aren't even actual Gamergate supporters" when this shame keeps popping up on what I would consider the main Gamergate discussion forums that exist at the moment.

I mean I'm absolutely willing to agree that that not all Gamergate supporters think that way about Horizon, but this doesn't keep popping up by accident, especially on a vote base site like Reddit.

[ethomaz]

What is that talk about Gamegate lol

[Aura7541]

Dude, I'm sorry but what do you think Gamergate is? The Gamergate movement is dead. There is no silent majority that still even gives a shame about Gamergate. When I'm talking about the "Gamergate crew" then I'm talking about the people that still legitimately care about this shame to this day and still discuss it, among those that is the reaction to Horizon that I've seen. If you have some sources that represent the "real Gamergate" that dismiss these opinions, then feel free to share them with me, but currently I'm seeing non of that.

Meanwhile what I am seeing is another thread climbing up KotakuinAction's frontpage titled "Horizon Zero Dawn is a showcase of the damage feminism has done to gaming", I mean sure not everyone is agreeing with it, but I think it's pretty rich to be like "maybe those people aren't even actual Gamergate supporters" when this shame keeps popping up on what I would consider the main Gamergate discussion forums that exist at the moment.

I mean I'm absolutely willing to agree that that not all Gamergate supporters think that way about Horizon, but this doesn't keep popping up by accident, especially on a vote base site like Reddit.

But how is Kotaku-in-Action the main Gamergate discussion forum? Like I said, it's big but it is not the entire Internet. A lot of YouTubers I follow, for instance, support GG, but don't use that subreddit. And these aren't small YouTubers. Some have over 100K subs, 200K subs, or even 500K subs. You can believe that there is no silent majority, but you don't have anything quantifiable that verifies that and basing a conclusion off of one corner of the Internet isn't adequate enough. Whether you think it's rich to consider that "maybe those people aren't even actual Gamergate supporters" is your opinion, but it also doesn't refute that notion. The possibility is there and it's a valid point. The vocal narrative is not necessarily the majority narrative. It's like the Xbox subreddit that you frequently mention. However, as cringey as that subreddit is, it is not representative of the Xbox fanbase.

I managed to dig up a previous comment of mine when CutePikachu/OfficerRaichu asked about the background about GamerGate. Though you might want to save time to watch through the entire video:

GAF vs Chertz: which do you dislike more?

There's also a video game developer's take on GamerGate:

EDIT: I think we should take this to PM, DerNebel. Otherwise, the thread will get even more derailed.

[nnodley]

On a positive note: 5 MORE DAYS TILL RELEASE!!!!!!!

[DerNebel]

But how is Kotaku-in-Action the main Gamergate discussion forum? Like I said, it's big but it is not the entire Internet. A lot of YouTubers I follow, for instance, support GG, but don't use that subreddit. And these aren't small YouTubers. Some have over 100K subs, 200K subs, or even 500K subs. You can believe that there is no silent majority, but you don't have anything quantifiable that verifies that and basing a conclusion off of one corner of the Internet isn't adequate enough. Whether you think it's rich to consider that "maybe those people aren't even actual Gamergate supporters" is your opinion, but it also doesn't refute that notion. The possibility is there and it's a valid point. The vocal narrative is not necessarily the majority narrative. It's like the Xbox subreddit that you frequently mention. However, as cringey as that subreddit is, it is not representative of the Xbox fanbase.

I managed to dig up a previous comment of mine when CutePikachu/OfficerRaichu asked about the background about GamerGate. Though you might want to save time to watch through the entire video:

GAF vs Chertz: which do you dislike more?

There's also a video game developer's take on GamerGate:

EDIT: I think we should take this to PM, DerNebel. Otherwise, the thread will get even more derailed.

We can also just let this be the end of things, cause I don't see this going anywhere anyways.

Just let me say a couple more things.

For one the number of subscribers a channel has is a lot less relevant than the actually amount of traffic it still generates. The two that you've mentioned a couple times here have over 100k and over 600k subscribers, but the actual view counts for their uploads hover at around 15k to 30k for that Mundanematt dude and usually around 15k to 50k for Rebel Media, that is not to mention the huge amount of content that these two channels upload that has nothing to do with gaming or Gamergate at all, Rebel Media in particular seems to be a lot more concerned with Islam than with Gamergate at least nowadays and Mundamatts last couple videos are about Milo Yiannopoulos.

So instead of looking at a number of subscribers from channels that support Gamergate but don't really produce much content related to the topic of Gamergate, I'd rather look at platforms that specifically discuss Gamergate and take the discussions on those as the current state of the Gamergate community. If you can point me to other platforms where those discussion still take place and that are maybe considered more representative of what Gamergate is nowadays then I'm fine with looking into that, but until then I'm going to stick with what I have. That's why real movements have leading figures that represent them and actually make it clear which positions their movements hold and which they don't hold.

Also I don't need a video on what Gamergate started as, since I already have a decent general idea and since I've already said that the movement seems to have completely lost the plot.

Anyways, that's really enough on this topic, let's just leave it at that.

[Horizon]

I am going to say this once. People who won't buy a game due to gender or race, seriously need to rethink their life.