Do games need to be "AAA"?

[the-pi-guy]

This is going to be a messy thread. I don't really have any solid points to talk about, and I just want to start the conversation without leading it.

There's been a lot of discussion in recent years about AAA gaming being unsustainable. Gaming budgets have increasing rapidly with every generation. We've gone from Uncharted 2 supposedly costing $20 million, to the next Spider-Man being poised to cost almost $400 million. Which is sustainable as long as an individual game is able to sell 10+ million copies.

Is all of this necessary? Does AAA gaming need to keep getting bigger the way that it has? Is there a plateau point where games don't even need to get more expensive? Could we already have reached that point? Do you think that it is important that Spider-Man 3 costs $400 million, do you think it's important that Spider-Man 2 cost $300 million.

I guess a major point in my mind is that there are plenty of expensive games that are getting outsold by cheaper games.

We have Nintendo making a lot more money than Sony, while making small titles. Some would argue that's because the hardware is less impressive, and consumer expectations are thus less. But is that necessarily the case?

My personal take is that these budgets are not *necessary*, but they're a way to stand out in the market and reduce risk. But at the same time, the budget also increases risk. And I have to imagine that there's a point where increasing the budget is no longer the path to stand out.

I think it's logical at the very least that there has to be a point where budgets shouldn't increase (except for regular inflation) for most games. The market can't support infinite budgets.

[kitler53]

i hit a point in last gen (ps4) where certain games were too detailed.    since you visit era Pi i'm pretty much specifically calling out that RE thread about the "Yellow Paint" where the developers added this otherwise users didn't know where to go next because soo much of the background is soo detailed it was hard to pick out the "interactive" elements.

don't get me wrong,.. TLoU is gorgeous but it's more detailed than it needs to be and not in a way that makes the game a better game.   

i think nintendo games are too low budget.  maybe low budget isn't the right way to look at this but the hardware is too weak.   the jaggies and terrible resolution annoys the fudge out of me.   i can't stand it in a way that reduces my ability to enjoy their games.   

i don't know a whole lot about game development to tell them how to spend their time/budget.   i'd just say that a massively detailed character models won't necessarily make me enjoy a game over an artistically detailed character model.

[Legend]

Reminds me of a thread I made 6 years ago about Nier Automata's budget.

Some games really do need to be hundreds of millions of dollars but it feels like a lot of games are pretty inefficient with their budgets. Same goes for movies nowadays that are also costing $300 million.

I have no freaking clue how spiderman could cost that much. He's popular, they'll probably make back their money, but where is the budget going? A sequel like that should ideally cost less than the first to make since so much can be reused, but instead it cost 3 times as much. Never played so was the campaign a huge upgrade at least?

[nnodley]

Reminds me of a thread I made 6 years ago about Nier Automata's budget.

Some games really do need to be hundreds of millions of dollars but it feels like a lot of games are pretty inefficient with their budgets. Same goes for movies nowadays that are also costing $300 million.

I have no freaking clue how spiderman could cost that much. He's popular, they'll probably make back their money, but where is the budget going? A sequel like that should ideally cost less than the first to make since so much can be reused, but instead it cost 3 times as much. Never played so was the campaign a huge upgrade at least?

Nope spider man 2 was definitely not a massive upgrade over the first. It was amazing but I agree it shouldn't have cost as much as it did

[kitler53]

how confident are we in that $300 million number?   

[Legend]

how confident are we in that $300 million number?  

It was in the leak. Spider-Man 2 Studio Has Big Plans And Big Challenges

$270 million budget but the game went $30 million over.

[the-pi-guy]

I really feel like a lot of these budgets have to be diminishing return stuff.

Like slightly better textures that cost 2x as much, but are only 10% better.

[Legend]

I really feel like a lot of these budgets have to be diminishing return stuff.

Like slightly better textures that cost 2x as much, but are only 10% better.

I hope not. Pumping more pixels into textures and more verts into a mesh is pretty simple with modern pipelines.

Maybe it's that they have more custom built assets and less repitition.

[the-pi-guy]

I hope not. Pumping more pixels into textures and more verts into a mesh is pretty simple with modern pipelines.

Maybe it's that they have more custom built assets and less repitition.

Just throwing out a dumb example.

More custom models and textures and animations that no one will ever see.  

[Legend]

Just throwing out a dumb example.

More custom models and textures and animations that no one will ever see.  

Yet could still use more animations for failing

[Horizon]

Reminds me of a thread I made 6 years ago about Nier Automata's budget.

Some games really do need to be hundreds of millions of dollars but it feels like a lot of games are pretty inefficient with their budgets. Same goes for movies nowadays that are also costing $300 million.

I have no freaking clue how spiderman could cost that much. He's popular, they'll probably make back their money, but where is the budget going? A sequel like that should ideally cost less than the first to make since so much can be reused, but instead it cost 3 times as much. Never played so was the campaign a huge upgrade at least?

I look at Spider-man 2 as Spider-man and Miles Morale combined for next gen. Those games combined are probably around $200m. They had way more crazy cinematics and boss fights in Spider-man 2 plus even reusing the assets from Spider-man required them to visually upgrade the city, animations, detail etc. I can easily see why it cost $300m. Still 80% of the cost went on wages.

To answer the question no they do not. I wished Sony did more smaller AAA games that were like $150m which came out every 3 years but still had the highest quality. I honestly feel with graphics they're already at an amazing place. Sure some look absolutely staggering like Horizon but even when I go back to PS4 games I think they're good enough. I want to more interactivity and depth in games. I feel open world games are big enough now and don't need to get bigger.

[kitler53]

Still 80% of the cost went on wages.

probably more than 80%.   for all the talk i hear about "games are too expensive" i also hear about "oh, no,... layoffs are terrible".    i do think that people fail to grasp that brining down budgets is pretty much the same thing as more layoffs.

I wished Sony did more smaller AAA games that were like $150m which came out every 3 years but still had the highest quality. I honestly feel with graphics they're already at an amazing place. Sure some look absolutely staggering like Horizon but even when I go back to PS4 games I think they're good enough. I want to more interactivity and depth in games. I feel open world games are big enough now and don't need to get bigger.

same but i would bring that budget even further down.

if you look at some of the biggest franchises of the moment (minecraft, rocket league, pubg/fortnight, helldivers, eldin ring) there is a common thread here.   all kind of started as a "low budget" release putting into the world game that tried to do something unique in terms of how we interact with the game and then blew up and investment in the game ramped up.   

i just don't think "more pretty" is all that motivating to me.    helldivers isn't the prettiest game in the world but dang is it fun.   i don't like a lot of nintendo game but they approach game the right way:  when creating a game they always ask themselves "how is this different from what has already been created?".    nintendo doesn't really release the same game twice in a generation.  they don't need to release 3 mario karts or smash bros in a gen.  make 1 and make is great and then make something that is truely different next.

i wish sony approached games like that more often.   again,.. i miss the days of ps3 when games like echochrome, fat princess, pixel junk eden, flower, journey were treated as important releases.    not every game needs to be a mega-hit but putting out a low budget game that goes viral (kind of like helldivers did) is going to give you the biggest RoI.   ffs terraria sold 44 million copies according to the internet.   it probably made bigger profits than games like GoW or Spiderman or TLoU.  

[Legend]

probably more than 80%.   for all the talk i hear about "games are too expensive" i also hear about "oh, no,... layoffs are terrible".    i do think that people fail to grasp that brining down budgets is pretty much the same thing as more layoffs.
same but i would bring that budget even further down.

if you look at some of the biggest franchises of the moment (minecraft, rocket league, pubg/fortnight, helldivers, eldin ring) there is a common thread here.   all kind of started as a "low budget" release putting into the world game that tried to do something unique in terms of how we interact with the game and then blew up and investment in the game ramped up.  

i just don't think "more pretty" is all that motivating to me.    helldivers isn't the prettiest game in the world but dang is it fun.   i don't like a lot of nintendo game but they approach game the right way:  when creating a game they always ask themselves "how is this different from what has already been created?".    nintendo doesn't really release the same game twice in a generation.  they don't need to release 3 mario karts or smash bros in a gen.  make 1 and make is great and then make something that is truely different next.

i wish sony approached games like that more often.   again,.. i miss the days of ps3 when games like echochrome, fat princess, pixel junk eden, flower, journey were treated as important releases.    not every game needs to be a mega-hit but putting out a low budget game that goes viral (kind of like helldivers did) is going to give you the biggest RoI.   ffs terraria sold 44 million copies according to the internet.   it probably made bigger profits than games like GoW or Spiderman or TLoU.  

I agree with your points in general, but what's the internet without nitpicking?

Studios need layoffs or they need to release more games. Would love if most studios released something new every few years, as long as each game was more than a paint by the numbers sequel. Uncharted 2 is becoming a pretty old game at this point but it's crazy that it released just 2 years after Uncharted 1.

Indies and smaller studios are luckily doing great. They're happening with or without Sony so I'm at least happy as a player.

[kitler53]

I agree with your points in general, but what's the internet without nitpicking?

Studios need layoffs or they need to release more games. Would love if most studios released something new every few years, as long as each game was more than a paint by the numbers sequel. Uncharted 2 is becoming a pretty old game at this point but it's crazy that it released just 2 years after Uncharted 1.

Indies and smaller studios are luckily doing great. They're happening with or without Sony so I'm at least happy as a player.

for a story driven game like uncharted,...   i honestly don't have a problem with a "paint by the numbers sequel".    not forever mind you but within a console generation i think it's fine to have a sequel be nothing more than a "big dlc".   i honestly don't understand how that fell out of practice.  

[the-pi-guy]

Yeah I don't understand the aversion to "by the numbers sequels".

When I really love a game, I really just want more of it.  

Though it is great when the sequel gets even better. But sometimes I don't click with the sequel changes, which makes me just wish the game was a more direct sequel.