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Started by Legend, Apr 23, 2015, 01:12 AM

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Xevross

Lol did you even play the medium?

It sure shows a lot of potential.

I don't know how sh will work out but I'm excited for their next game.
No but I know how garbage their story and messages are throughout their games.

kitler53

Bloober team are awful though, this kind of sucks.
Lol did you even play the medium?

It sure shows a lot of potential.

I don't know how sh will work out but I'm excited for their next game.
obviously i didn't,.. but i watched that first 30 or whatever minutes gameplay video from just before launch and i have to say it looked pretty bad.   a SH game in their hands would be a disappointment to the franchise fans me-thinks.
          

Xevross

obviously i didn't,.. but i watched that first 30 or whatever minutes gameplay video from just before launch and i have to say it looked pretty bad.   a SH game in their hands would be a disappointment to the franchise fans me-thinks.
Gameplay aside (and a low 70s meta means it isn't crazy) they're a team that seems to firmly believe and actively promote their beliefs that people who've suffered abuse will inevitably perpetuate and continue the cycle and that abuse victims might as well just die because they're a lost cause. So yeah, not the best.

the-pi-guy

Jun 30, 2021, 07:53 PM Last Edit: Jun 30, 2021, 07:59 PM by the-pi-guy
Gameplay aside (and a low 70s meta means it isn't crazy) they're a team that seems to firmly believe and actively promote their beliefs that people who've suffered abuse will inevitably perpetuate and continue the cycle and that abuse victims might as well just die because they're a lost cause. So yeah, not the best.
Really, really awful if that's the case.

Though part of me wonders/hopes/expects that people are reading further into something than the devs really thought out. Still problematic presentations suck, even if they aren't intentional.

Xevross

Really, really awful if that's the case.

Though part of me wonders/hopes/expects that people are reading further into something than the devs really thought out.
I've seen this from so many different people, just look at Era threads on the story and in The Medium threads in general and lots of people point it out independently.

Here's a twitter thread I saw posted on Era which sums it up well:

And here's a text copy of the thread:

Spoiler for Hidden:
to understand why the ending to bloober team's 'the medium' is so bad and deeply irresponsible, you need to know the story first. this thread's going to be long but i'll try my best to be as concise as i can. spoilers ahead<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;trigger warnings for: child molestation, rape, the holocaust, murder, and suicide<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;'the medium' is a story about marianne, a woman with psychic powers who exists simultaneously in the real world and another world - an alternate reality where people's emotions manifest<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;throughout the game you're attacked by a creature named "the maw" - the main antagonist who the game eventually reveals was created as a result of marianne's sister, lily, being molested by her father's former mentor, richard, when she was a child<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;richard is revealed to have a monster of his own - "the childeater" - which was a result of trauma he experienced as a child. richard's segment is where the vast majority of trigger warnings for this game come from and plays like edgelords attempting to one-up themselves<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;when richard was a child his father died in world war 2. when nazis occupied poland, richard's family began hiding jewish people in their home. richard befriended a girl they were hiding named rose, and around this time richard's mom married a new man<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;this man became abusive and raped richard's mother, the audio of which is played automatically in the game for the player to experience. it is awful and gratuitous. richard's mother calls the nazis to save herself, resulting in the jewish family being found<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;the step-father is killed for being a collaborator, while rose and the rest of the jewish family are executed. this causes richard to create "the childeater" - the monster that makes him draw inappropriate images of, and eventually molest, lily<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;the trauma that lily experiences due to richard then creates "the maw" - a monster that eventually runs amok and possesses several people nearby lily, who then go on rampages and murder indiscriminately<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;pausing for a moment here: i want to point out that bloober team are attempting a "trauma begets trauma" narrative - richard's trauma (the childeater) has created lily's trauma (the maw). the game also frames the maw as specifically lily's fault<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;the finale of 'the medium' occurs when marianne and lily reunite. lily explains that as long as she's alive the maw is too, and the only way to stop it is for lily to die. she then begs marianne to shoot her. lily says she can't kill herself because she's "not strong enough"<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;marianne refuses initially, buying time by threatening to kill herself instead because the maw wants to possess her due to her strong connection with the spirit world. this connection would allow the maw to possess her for a much longer time than other people<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;ultimately, as marianne struggles with lily's request, something her father's spirit said earlier in the game comes back to her: "you can't always save everyone, butterfly". the game cuts to black, and ends with the sound of a gunshot<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;obviously there are two ways to interpret this - that marianne shot herself or lily, but either result wouldn't make the game any less problematic considering the maw is ultimately tied to lily, and the phrase "you can't always save everyone" is intended to resonate thematically<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;i mean, the achievement you get when you beat the game is "can't always save everyone". the game itself considers lily a lost cause - the victim of trauma that was not in any way her fault but regarded as cyclical and stopped by nothing short of a bullet to her head<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;the implications of this are dire. bloober team has made a game that actively promotes indifference toward people dealing with trauma, plain and simple. and that's the charitable read. the uncharitable one is that bloober team thinks people with trauma shouldn't exist<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;please, anyone dealing with trauma: do not listen to bloober team. you are not a lost cause. you are not predestined to perpetuate the pain you've experienced in your life. you are not weak, and it is a fundamentally good thing that you are here so you may feel better someday<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;it's almost funny that a developer who got a patent for displaying two worlds at once has made so strikingly obvious the fundamental split between how we interface with games: those who thoughtlessly consume, and those who don't<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;engaging with games as purely escapism isn't necessarily a bad thing until you have one that actively promotes apathy towards victims of abuse and is given a pass. i say this because thinking gamers actually agreed with this message is too iced up to take in right now<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;of course i'm just naïve. this isn't even the first time bloober's displayed indifference toward people suffering from trauma. 'blair witch' is similarly dismissive of people with ptsd, and 'layers of fear 2' implies those with chronic medical conditions are inherently suicidal<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;considering this you may ask why i seem to care so much about 'the medium' when this has been a consistent problem. to that i say: this is the first time bloober team's barely even tried to hide their apathy for trauma victims behind interpretation<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;'the medium' crossed a line because there really isn't any other way to interpret a woman suffering from child abuse asking you to kill her and the game popping a cheevo that reads "eh, might as well" while overtly stating she'll perpetuate trauma as long as she's alive<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;it's also worth noting that 'the medium' doesn't even handle trigger warnings properly - opting for an overly generalized warning. bloober team place importance on not spoiling their game's story over the health and wellbeing of the players who may be negatively affected by it <a href="https://imgur.com/a/lsCbMoj" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The Warning Screen for The Medium</a><br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;trauma victims consistently deal with this lack of empathy in general and 'the medium' is just that apathy manifesting itself in a shaming horror game, but we have an opportunity here to vocalize a disgust for that apathy in a way that may help people not feel so fudgy alone<br>&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;so. fudge bloober team. fudge their exploitation of trauma victims. fudge their apathy. fudge their farming of mental health issues for horror game fodder. if you&#39;re suffering, please don&#39;t listen to this awful game. you deserve every opportunity in life to feel better.

Xevross




Here's a fun video if you wanna look at another shaming aspect of Bloober.

Legend

I've seen this from so many different people, just look at Era threads on the story and in The Medium threads in general and lots of people point it out independently.

Here's a twitter thread I saw posted on Era which sums it up well:

And here's a text copy of the thread:

Spoiler for Hidden:
to understand why the ending to bloober team's 'the medium' is so bad and deeply irresponsible, you need to know the story first. this thread's going to be long but i'll try my best to be as concise as i can. spoilers ahead
 
 trigger warnings for: child molestation, rape, the holocaust, murder, and suicide
 
 'the medium' is a story about marianne, a woman with psychic powers who exists simultaneously in the real world and another world - an alternate reality where people's emotions manifest
 
 throughout the game you're attacked by a creature named "the maw" - the main antagonist who the game eventually reveals was created as a result of marianne's sister, lily, being molested by her father's former mentor, richard, when she was a child
 
 richard is revealed to have a monster of his own - "the childeater" - which was a result of trauma he experienced as a child. richard's segment is where the vast majority of trigger warnings for this game come from and plays like edgelords attempting to one-up themselves
 
 when richard was a child his father died in world war 2. when nazis occupied poland, richard's family began hiding jewish people in their home. richard befriended a girl they were hiding named rose, and around this time richard's mom married a new man
 
 this man became abusive and raped richard's mother, the audio of which is played automatically in the game for the player to experience. it is awful and gratuitous. richard's mother calls the nazis to save herself, resulting in the jewish family being found
 
 the step-father is killed for being a collaborator, while rose and the rest of the jewish family are executed. this causes richard to create "the childeater" - the monster that makes him draw inappropriate images of, and eventually molest, lily
 
 the trauma that lily experiences due to richard then creates "the maw" - a monster that eventually runs amok and possesses several people nearby lily, who then go on rampages and murder indiscriminately
 
 pausing for a moment here: i want to point out that bloober team are attempting a "trauma begets trauma" narrative - richard's trauma (the childeater) has created lily's trauma (the maw). the game also frames the maw as specifically lily's fault
 
 the finale of 'the medium' occurs when marianne and lily reunite. lily explains that as long as she's alive the maw is too, and the only way to stop it is for lily to die. she then begs marianne to shoot her. lily says she can't kill herself because she's "not strong enough"
 
 marianne refuses initially, buying time by threatening to kill herself instead because the maw wants to possess her due to her strong connection with the spirit world. this connection would allow the maw to possess her for a much longer time than other people
 
 ultimately, as marianne struggles with lily's request, something her father's spirit said earlier in the game comes back to her: "you can't always save everyone, butterfly". the game cuts to black, and ends with the sound of a gunshot
 
 obviously there are two ways to interpret this - that marianne shot herself or lily, but either result wouldn't make the game any less problematic considering the maw is ultimately tied to lily, and the phrase "you can't always save everyone" is intended to resonate thematically
 
 i mean, the achievement you get when you beat the game is "can't always save everyone". the game itself considers lily a lost cause - the victim of trauma that was not in any way her fault but regarded as cyclical and stopped by nothing short of a bullet to her head
 
 the implications of this are dire. bloober team has made a game that actively promotes indifference toward people dealing with trauma, plain and simple. and that's the charitable read. the uncharitable one is that bloober team thinks people with trauma shouldn't exist
 
 please, anyone dealing with trauma: do not listen to bloober team. you are not a lost cause. you are not predestined to perpetuate the pain you've experienced in your life. you are not weak, and it is a fundamentally good thing that you are here so you may feel better someday
 
 it's almost funny that a developer who got a patent for displaying two worlds at once has made so strikingly obvious the fundamental split between how we interface with games: those who thoughtlessly consume, and those who don't
 
 engaging with games as purely escapism isn't necessarily a bad thing until you have one that actively promotes apathy towards victims of abuse and is given a pass. i say this because thinking gamers actually agreed with this message is too iced up to take in right now
 
 of course i'm just naïve. this isn't even the first time bloober's displayed indifference toward people suffering from trauma. 'blair witch' is similarly dismissive of people with ptsd, and 'layers of fear 2' implies those with chronic medical conditions are inherently suicidal
 
 considering this you may ask why i seem to care so much about 'the medium' when this has been a consistent problem. to that i say: this is the first time bloober team's barely even tried to hide their apathy for trauma victims behind interpretation
 
 'the medium' crossed a line because there really isn't any other way to interpret a woman suffering from child abuse asking you to kill her and the game popping a cheevo that reads "eh, might as well" while overtly stating she'll perpetuate trauma as long as she's alive
 
 it's also worth noting that 'the medium' doesn't even handle trigger warnings properly - opting for an overly generalized warning. bloober team place importance on not spoiling their game's story over the health and wellbeing of the players who may be negatively affected by it The Warning Screen for The Medium
 
 trauma victims consistently deal with this lack of empathy in general and 'the medium' is just that apathy manifesting itself in a shaming horror game, but we have an opportunity here to vocalize a disgust for that apathy in a way that may help people not feel so fudgy alone
 
 so. fudge bloober team. fudge their exploitation of trauma victims. fudge their apathy. fudge their farming of mental health issues for horror game fodder. if you're suffering, please don't listen to this awful game. you deserve every opportunity in life to feel better.

It's definitely iced up that the game can be easily interpreted that way. I believe the game is offering somewhat of an opposite message while not being that deep, but dev intentions don't stop real harm from occurring.

the-pi-guy

Jul 01, 2021, 12:05 AM Last Edit: Jul 01, 2021, 12:14 AM by the-pi-guy
I've seen this from so many different people, just look at Era threads on the story and in The Medium threads in general and lots of people point it out independently.

Here's a twitter thread I saw posted on Era which sums it up well:

And here's a text copy of the thread:

Spoiler for Hidden:
to understand why the ending to bloober team's 'the medium' is so bad and deeply irresponsible, you need to know the story first. this thread's going to be long but i'll try my best to be as concise as i can. spoilers ahead
 
 trigger warnings for: child molestation, rape, the holocaust, murder, and suicide
 
 'the medium' is a story about marianne, a woman with psychic powers who exists simultaneously in the real world and another world - an alternate reality where people's emotions manifest
 
 throughout the game you're attacked by a creature named "the maw" - the main antagonist who the game eventually reveals was created as a result of marianne's sister, lily, being molested by her father's former mentor, richard, when she was a child
 
 richard is revealed to have a monster of his own - "the childeater" - which was a result of trauma he experienced as a child. richard's segment is where the vast majority of trigger warnings for this game come from and plays like edgelords attempting to one-up themselves
 
 when richard was a child his father died in world war 2. when nazis occupied poland, richard's family began hiding jewish people in their home. richard befriended a girl they were hiding named rose, and around this time richard's mom married a new man
 
 this man became abusive and raped richard's mother, the audio of which is played automatically in the game for the player to experience. it is awful and gratuitous. richard's mother calls the nazis to save herself, resulting in the jewish family being found
 
 the step-father is killed for being a collaborator, while rose and the rest of the jewish family are executed. this causes richard to create "the childeater" - the monster that makes him draw inappropriate images of, and eventually molest, lily
 
 the trauma that lily experiences due to richard then creates "the maw" - a monster that eventually runs amok and possesses several people nearby lily, who then go on rampages and murder indiscriminately
 
 pausing for a moment here: i want to point out that bloober team are attempting a "trauma begets trauma" narrative - richard's trauma (the childeater) has created lily's trauma (the maw). the game also frames the maw as specifically lily's fault
 
 the finale of 'the medium' occurs when marianne and lily reunite. lily explains that as long as she's alive the maw is too, and the only way to stop it is for lily to die. she then begs marianne to shoot her. lily says she can't kill herself because she's "not strong enough"
 
 marianne refuses initially, buying time by threatening to kill herself instead because the maw wants to possess her due to her strong connection with the spirit world. this connection would allow the maw to possess her for a much longer time than other people
 
 ultimately, as marianne struggles with lily's request, something her father's spirit said earlier in the game comes back to her: "you can't always save everyone, butterfly". the game cuts to black, and ends with the sound of a gunshot
 
 obviously there are two ways to interpret this - that marianne shot herself or lily, but either result wouldn't make the game any less problematic considering the maw is ultimately tied to lily, and the phrase "you can't always save everyone" is intended to resonate thematically
 
 i mean, the achievement you get when you beat the game is "can't always save everyone". the game itself considers lily a lost cause - the victim of trauma that was not in any way her fault but regarded as cyclical and stopped by nothing short of a bullet to her head
 
 the implications of this are dire. bloober team has made a game that actively promotes indifference toward people dealing with trauma, plain and simple. and that's the charitable read. the uncharitable one is that bloober team thinks people with trauma shouldn't exist
 
 please, anyone dealing with trauma: do not listen to bloober team. you are not a lost cause. you are not predestined to perpetuate the pain you've experienced in your life. you are not weak, and it is a fundamentally good thing that you are here so you may feel better someday
 
 it's almost funny that a developer who got a patent for displaying two worlds at once has made so strikingly obvious the fundamental split between how we interface with games: those who thoughtlessly consume, and those who don't
 
 engaging with games as purely escapism isn't necessarily a bad thing until you have one that actively promotes apathy towards victims of abuse and is given a pass. i say this because thinking gamers actually agreed with this message is too iced up to take in right now
 
 of course i'm just naïve. this isn't even the first time bloober's displayed indifference toward people suffering from trauma. 'blair witch' is similarly dismissive of people with ptsd, and 'layers of fear 2' implies those with chronic medical conditions are inherently suicidal
 
 considering this you may ask why i seem to care so much about 'the medium' when this has been a consistent problem. to that i say: this is the first time bloober team's barely even tried to hide their apathy for trauma victims behind interpretation
 
 'the medium' crossed a line because there really isn't any other way to interpret a woman suffering from child abuse asking you to kill her and the game popping a cheevo that reads "eh, might as well" while overtly stating she'll perpetuate trauma as long as she's alive
 
 it's also worth noting that 'the medium' doesn't even handle trigger warnings properly - opting for an overly generalized warning. bloober team place importance on not spoiling their game's story over the health and wellbeing of the players who may be negatively affected by it The Warning Screen for The Medium
 
 trauma victims consistently deal with this lack of empathy in general and 'the medium' is just that apathy manifesting itself in a shaming horror game, but we have an opportunity here to vocalize a disgust for that apathy in a way that may help people not feel so fudgy alone
 
 so. fudge bloober team. fudge their exploitation of trauma victims. fudge their apathy. fudge their farming of mental health issues for horror game fodder. if you're suffering, please don't listen to this awful game. you deserve every opportunity in life to feel better.

I know.

 I have of course, not played the game. I had read this Twitter chain. 

It just left me with questions about some of the interpretations. 

A couple examples:

Spoiler for Hidden:
<br>&gt;the game also frames the maw as specifically lily's fault<br><br>How is it blaming Lily, while also blaming her abuser?&nbsp; <br><br><br>&gt;the uncharitable one is that bloober team thinks people with trauma shouldn't exist<br><br>This just feels like a big stretch. The whole protagonist is pushing to save these people.&nbsp; It doesn&#39;t seem to me that the game is showing that killing these people is what&#39;s best.&nbsp; None of his argument even seems to me to point to that conclusion, and yet that&#39;s his conclusion.&nbsp; <br><br>A more charitable interpretation could be that people who work in trauma, might get traumatized themselves because there is a lot to deal with.&nbsp; <br><br><br>Additionally he mentions two possible endings, and yet I&#39;ve seen about 2 or 3 other endings that were a lot more charitable, that people thought were possible.&nbsp; <br><br>The bit about &quot;you can&#39;t save everyone&quot;, is something her dad says, and I don&#39;t get the impression she believes it even at the end.&nbsp;


I'm not saying any of this has any merit, just saying it's easy to interpret things different ways. 


>lots of people point it out independently.

Lots of people pointed out that The Last of Us 2 can be interpreted as racist, that doesn't mean that was the intention.  It certainly gives the wrong impression, but that doesn't mean that was the intention. 
But again, it's certainly possible to cause damage even without that intention.

Legend

I know.

 I have of course, not played the game. I had read this Twitter chain.  

It just left me with questions about some of the interpretations.  

A couple examples:

Spoiler for Hidden:

>the game also frames the maw as specifically lily's fault

How is it blaming Lily, while also blaming her abuser?  


>the uncharitable one is that bloober team thinks people with trauma shouldn't exist

This just feels like a big stretch. The whole protagonist is pushing to save these people.  It doesn't seem to me that the game is showing that killing these people is what's best.  None of his argument even seems to me to point to that conclusion, and yet that's his conclusion.  

A more charitable interpretation could be that people who work in trauma, might get traumatized themselves because there is a lot to deal with.  


Additionally he mentions two possible endings, and yet I've seen about 2 or 3 other endings that were a lot more charitable, that people thought were possible.  

The bit about "you can't save everyone", is something her dad says, and I don't get the impression she believes it even at the end.  


I'm not saying any of this has any merit, just saying it's easy to interpret things different ways.  


>lots of people point it out independently.

Lots of people pointed out that The Last of Us 2 can be interpreted as racist, that doesn't mean that was the intention.  It certainly gives the wrong impression, but that doesn't mean that was the intention.  
But again, it's certainly possible to cause damage even without that intention.
I didn't take notes while playing but I remember feeling a desire to help people like you suggest. I also think that desire supports the idea that the game isn't intended to be analyzed thematically to that level.

In addition to the abused spirits, there are 4 trapped souls that you help during the game. They are traditional horror tropes that need a name and a mask to be released. Each one feels like a side mission from a pacing point of view, but they reinforce that the game views spirits and demons in the traditional Hollywood way: a medium helps spirits and troubled souls.

However as you said, intention doesn't stop something from causing harm. I thought it was pretty apparent that the game ending was standard sacrificing yourself for the people you love, but if people are coming away with the opposite impression that's horrible. It would be great if there was a way to know how many players finished the game and were harmed by it. Online discussions are a notoriously bad way to judge that.

Legend


Legend



From the coalition.

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