Microsoft to lay off 10,000 employees across company (including Xbox, Bethesda)

Started by the-pi-guy, Jan 18, 2023, 04:39 PM

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Legend

Layoffs at The Coalition as well.
Well I guess that at least improves the odds of Halo not being dead.

i mean, if people are still playing it they'll keep putting out a season pass from time to time.   i'm sure the RoI is okay when it's just a guy putting like 50 hours of effort into making a few guns a slightly different color....   i'm being a bit of a sucker here but that's effectively what season passes are for any GaaS featuring a battle pass.

they'll make sure the servers are still running.  make a new map or two.  maybe a new mode even.  however, i just don't expect any big investments if the campaign team was killed.  they'll just keep the lights on and the existing fanbase from becoming angry.
That's already what they've been doing. I think infinite only received 2 new maps within its first year of release.

SWORDF1SH

Do we know how many people were laid off in the gaming sector and roughly how many people MS had employed in the gaming sector?

the-pi-guy


kitler53

Do we know how many people were laid off in the gaming sector and roughly how many people MS had employed in the gaming sector?
lols.  we don't even know basic information like what products are in MS's gaming division.   they obstruct so that they may spin. 
          

the-pi-guy

Sony's studios are broadcasting hard that they're hiring.






Legend

Oh. Unity got rid of 284 employees too.

Legend

Blast from the past. Crazy that this was real.



He's done a great job leading xbox but their first party games are just as bad today as they were 9 years ago.

kitler53

Sony's studios are broadcasting hard that they're hiring.






if i could like your post twice i would.   this is my absolute favorite post of all of 2023!
          

kitler53

Blast from the past. Crazy that this was real.

Spoiler for Hidden:


He's done a great job leading xbox but their first party games are just as bad today as they were 9 years ago.
has he though?   

no doubt he is the industry leader of using social media.  he's got no scruples and therefore is always saying exactly what fans want to hear.   but is he really being a good leader?

okay first off the things in that chart:
1. xbox coming to china announced 1 month after spencer.  do you really think that was a spencer decision??  clearly that was an effort years in the making.  you don't just walk up to china and get approval to enter their market 30 days later...
2. kinectless xbox?  does it take leadership to read the internet and realize that launching $100 more expensive due to an expansive peripheral is a thing people didn't like?
3. adding games with gold? does it take leadership to realize that sony was releasing games with ps+ and that made their service more attractive?

so what has he done in the 8.5 years after that first six months?  what are we pointing to that makes xbox soo good?  has there been anything out of xbox worth celebrating outside of gamepass?

listen,.. when 343i is publicly criticizing "leadership" as the reason halo failed it's not a big leap to say "leadership = spencer".   even if spencer didn't make any particular decision himself he hired the guy that did.   honestly if you group xbox's first party into 
   A) under spencer's leadership 
   B) recently acquired so that recent games are not to be credited/blamed on spencer 

...then i would say that xbox first party games under A are probably worse than ever.  


xbox is being kept afloat by acquisitions from the success (aka $$) from MS's other divisions like Azure.  
          

the-pi-guy

Blast from the past. Crazy that this was real.

He's done a great job leading xbox but their first party games are just as bad today as they were 9 years ago.
I really wonder what kind of issues they're having. Or what makes the difference.

They seem to have a lot of studios and their studios seem to outsource a lot. (Or maybe they just advertise their partnerships more than Sony does). It doesn't seem like there's a lack of developers.

Was there a blank check and games are seeing a bigger scope creep than they should have?

A couple of studios they bought take a long time to make games in the first place (Undead Labs, Compulsion Games taking 5 years to put out a game, and their next one looks to be taking even longer).

One of the more surprising things is Turn 10 taking 6 years to put out the next Forza game, after releasing games on a 2 year schedule.

343: I've seen a lot of people talking about MS's policy to use contractors hampering this studio. Quite a few people apparently leave after 18 months.  


Games taking longer is pretty much the norm, but it seems like some companies are doing a better job of handling that than others.

Legend

Jan 19, 2023, 05:04 PM Last Edit: Jan 19, 2023, 05:05 PM by Legend
has he though?   

no doubt he is the industry leader of using social media.  he's got no scruples and therefore is always saying exactly what fans want to hear.   but is he really being a good leader?

okay first off the things in that chart:
1. xbox coming to china announced 1 month after spencer.  do you really think that was a spencer decision??  clearly that was an effort years in the making.  you don't just walk up to china and get approval to enter their market 30 days later...
2. kinectless xbox?  does it take leadership to read the internet and realize that launching $100 more expensive due to an expansive peripheral is a thing people didn't like?
3. adding games with gold? does it take leadership to realize that sony was releasing games with ps+ and that made their service more attractive?

so what has he done in the 8.5 years after that first six months?  what are we pointing to that makes xbox soo good?  has there been anything out of xbox worth celebrating outside of gamepass?

listen,.. when 343i is publicly criticizing "leadership" as the reason halo failed it's not a big leap to say "leadership = spencer".   even if spencer didn't make any particular decision himself he hired the guy that did.   honestly if you group xbox's first party into
   A) under spencer's leadership
   B) recently acquired so that recent games are not to be credited/blamed on spencer

...then i would say that xbox first party games under A are probably worse than ever. 


xbox is being kept afloat by acquisitions from the success (aka $$) from MS's other divisions like Azure. 
lol it's crazy that people honestly made this picture, not that Spencer pulled it off. We made so much fun of it back in the day.

I'm acknowledging that Xbox is in a much better spot today than it was in 2014, but all I'm caring about is how they've failed to revitalize their first party.

the-pi-guy

If nothing else, MS's leadership has done an excellent job at messaging.

Gamepass is incredibly well loved in the gaming community, backwards compatibility is incredibly solid, and the console itself is great.

How they manage their first party studio is the the biggest thing that hasn't seemed to improve, despite the growth and investment.

kitler53

Jan 19, 2023, 05:22 PM Last Edit: Jan 19, 2023, 05:25 PM by kitler53
I really wonder what kind of issues they're having. Or what makes the difference.

They seem to have a lot of studios and their studios seem to outsource a lot. (Or maybe they just advertise their partnerships more than Sony does). It doesn't seem like there's a lack of developers.

Was there a blank check and games are seeing a bigger scope creep than they should have?

A couple of studios they bought take a long time to make games in the first place (Undead Labs, Compulsion Games taking 5 years to put out a game, and their next one looks to be taking even longer).

One of the more surprising things is Turn 10 taking 6 years to put out the next Forza game, after releasing games on a 2 year schedule.

343: I've seen a lot of people talking about MS's policy to use contractors hampering this studio. Quite a few people apparently leave after 18 months. 


Games taking longer is pretty much the norm, but it seems like some companies are doing a better job of handling that than others.
the use of contractors feels to me like something fundamental to MS culture. 

if we start of remembering that MS mostly makes productivity software,.. this leadership style makes sense.   MS is pushing hard on the "microservices" architecture where you build big thing as a collection of small things that is highly specialized at doing 1 thing.    When you have something as massive as Windows or Azure you kind of need this approach.   You can't have 100,000 employees "collaborating".   You break off a small group and tell them to do 1 thing.   ....and in this sort of environment contractors can make a lot of sense.

with respect to the 18 months,.. that's a legal requirement.   government will not allow a long term contractor.  after 18 months you either have to let them go or hire them as a full time employee.  the intent (and whether it works or not is up for debate) is to prevent business from only hiring contractors because contractors don't get a lot of basic human rights such as:
- PTO
- Unemployment
- Benefits such as health insurance

I'm not sure if i remember where you are from Pi but this is pretty US-centric stuff where employment is basically a requirement to be allowed to live...


anyways,.. i think what MS is doing is fine for most of their company.  it's just not great for video games.   video games are more "art" than "software" and you can't just break-up a game into small pieces and expect it to come together and be fun.  it will feel very "paint by numbers" which is exactly the gist of the criticism on things like halo 5 or gear 5.  video games are far more than technical execution of code.   

I can't speak to MS specifically but I will say this,.. i've never worked for a company under any leadership that seemed to understand that "they" need to support the team instead of the teams supporting them.    all i ever hear about is how every employee in the company needs to standardize themselves to fit some dumb KPI the CEO is using to measure output. 

The biggest team in my company is 500 people and the smallest is 2.   the processes needed to manage the 500 man team makes the 2 man team like 90% inefficient because all they do is try to create data for the KPI and never get around to actually working.   In the 500 man team there is are dedicated team members to do the KPI BS so that other people can actually work.

The point being,.. i'll bet Nadella has never even considered the idea that xbox should follow a different structure than other parts of MS.  From day-1 his public idea was that xbox needed to run a windows OS on xbox and not do their own thing.   I have no reason to believe this PoV doesn't extend to everything else xbox is doing.
          

Legend


the-pi-guy

the use of contractors feels to me like something fundamental to MS culture.  

if we start of remembering that MS mostly makes productivity software,.. this leadership style makes sense.   MS is pushing hard on the "microservices" architecture where you build big thing as a collection of small things that is highly specialized at doing 1 thing.    When you have something as massive as Windows or Azure you kind of need this approach.   You can't have 100,000 employees "collaborating".   You break off a small group and tell them to do 1 thing.   ....and in this sort of environment contractors can make a lot of sense.

with respect to the 18 months,.. that's a legal requirement.   government will not allow a long term contractor.  after 18 months you either have to let them go or hire them as a full time employee.  the intent (and whether it works or not is up for debate) is to prevent business from only hiring contractors because contractors don't get a lot of basic human rights such as:
- PTO
- Unemployment
- Benefits such as health insurance

That is pretty much what I've heard. (I know the 18 months bit is a legal requirement for contractors).
Working for 18 months, probably isn't conducive to game development. If a game is in development for 36 months, or maybe even 60 months; by the end of it that feature probably needs to be changed or maybe isn't relevant in the first place. You're also not able to keep any talent long term.  


I think Google and Amazon had similar struggles, where the style of management that makes the rest of their software work, just doesn't work for game development.

I'm not sure if i remember where you are from Pi but this is pretty US-centric stuff where employment is basically a requirement to be allowed to live...
Yeah I live in the midwest.  

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