TV Show Thread

Started by Dr. Pezus, May 07, 2014, 03:24 PM

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Legend

I enjoy watching what was an intelligent show with amazing characters and logical, consistent story. All we got now is a dumb hollywood blockbuster that's a huge middle finger to all the proper fans. This season has made the Michael Bay Transformers writing look good.
Do you still feel the same way now that it's a full day later?

Xevross

Do you still feel the same way now that it's a full day later?
Well the script hasn't magically changed from being dumb as fudge so ya ;D

Dr. Pezus

May 13, 2019, 11:53 PM Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:58 PM by Dr. Pezus
Decent episode up until the "battle". Holy fudge, they made Dany dumb as fudge

Also, it's amazing what plot armor can do to a dragon. One episode he can't destroy anything  and even loses his brother and the next he destroys everything without getting a scratch

Easiest victory ever for Dany. Why didn't she do this earlier. No reason to slaughter everyone.

Legend

Decent episode up until the "battle". Holy fudge, they made Dany dumb as fudge
What was dumb about her? She was angry yo.

Well the script hasn't magically changed from being dumb as fudge so ya ;D
Eh this episode redeemed the season for me. One of the best episodes of the show imo. Also did a good job contextualizing events from previous episodes.

Dr. Pezus

What was dumb about her? She was angry yo.
Eh this episode redeemed the season for me. One of the best episodes of the show imo. Also did a good job contextualizing events from previous episodes.
Uhm, she killed everyone because she was angry. This is the same person that freed slaves wherever she went

Xevross

May 14, 2019, 07:58 AM Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 08:01 AM by Xevross
What was dumb about her? She was angry yo.

Eh this episode redeemed the season for me. One of the best episodes of the show imo. Also did a good job contextualizing events from previous episodes.
There's quite a big jump between being angry at your enemy and ignoring your enemy to methodically comitt genocide.

Sure it put the rest of the season into context because they were building up to this episode all along, but they rushed here too quickly and too much of it still feels completely illogical. So many character archs have been butchered and so many characters have been made completely useless.

Dr. Pezus

It's also really easy to enter the palace, apparently.

Euron magically appeared at Jamie's spot

Xevross

It's also really easy to enter the palace, apparently.

Euron magically appeared at Jamie's spot
Yeah characters just appear randomly where they're needed no matter how dumb it is or what it does to their archs.

Legend

Uhm, she killed everyone because she was angry. This is the same person that freed slaves wherever she went
That's kinda the point. She put ~150 or so masters up on crucifix equivalents in a past season but we kinda viewed it as ok at the time. It was presented as a bad political move but not an evil move. However in retrospect, she has always tried to rule by fear. In the same season her former slave advisor disobeyed orders because he thought he was doing the right thing. Dany's response was to publicly execute him to send a message.

She strongly disliked slavery but she was never a benevolent ruler while freeing them.

She is now in Westeros and has seen that the people despise her. In her mind they are closer to the masters instead of the slaves. She also has lost practically everything since coming to Westeros. The throne is the only thing she has left and even that goal is crumbling in front of her. She made the conscious decision to rule by fear before the battle, but during the battle it was mostly just anger imo. She tried to get them to surrender multiple times before but only now that she has lost her dragon and her close friend do they give up. She doesn't want them to avoid consequences that easily, she wants revenge.

So many character archs have been butchered and so many characters have been made completely useless.
That's classic game of thrones. People aren't supposed to have plot armor.

It's also really easy to enter the palace, apparently.

Euron magically appeared at Jamie's spot
Euron was always annoying. Probably my least favorite character on the show. Should have let him drowned.

Xevross

May 14, 2019, 09:56 AM Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 10:02 AM by Xevross
That's kinda the point. She put ~150 or so masters up on crucifix equivalents in a past season but we kinda viewed it as ok at the time. It was presented as a bad political move but not an evil move. However in retrospect, she has always tried to rule by fear. In the same season her former slave advisor disobeyed orders because he thought he was doing the right thing. Dany's response was to publicly execute him to send a message.

She strongly disliked slavery but she was never a benevolent ruler while freeing them.

She is now in Westeros and has seen that the people despise her. In her mind they are closer to the masters instead of the slaves. She also has lost practically everything since coming to Westeros. The throne is the only thing she has left and even that goal is crumbling in front of her. She made the conscious decision to rule by fear before the battle, but during the battle it was mostly just anger imo. She tried to get them to surrender multiple times before but only now that she has lost her dragon and her close friend do they give up. She doesn't want them to avoid consequences that easily, she wants revenge.

That's classic game of thrones. People aren't supposed to have plot armor.

Euron was always annoying. Probably my least favorite character on the show. Should have let him drowned.
She put up ~150 masters for crucifixion after they crucified that many children, its one of Dany's darkest moves but it was still only targeted at the people who deserved it. And again with the execution, her strategy has always been to send public messages by targeting and singling out only those who are at fault. Just like last season when she asked the Tarlys to bend the knee and they refused, she burned them but nobody else.

She's seen that people despise her but Dany has always believed in herself and known people will love her when she gets the chance to prove her worth. She's come to save them from tyrants, from people like cersei who blew up the sept and killed thousands of innocents. She repeatedly refrained from attacking KL with dragons because she said herself "I'm not here to be Queen of the ashes". She was mad and wanted revenge after what cersei and euron did last two episodes and rightly so, but she sank euron's fleet and cersei's army surrendered, she'd won and her revenge was there. All she had to do was wait for Jon to take the red keep and then she could get revenge on Cersei in any way she wanted.

That's just plain wrong, "she doesn't want them to avoid consequences that easily" of course, so she should go and find Cersei and make sure she brutally kills her and gives her what she deserves. Cersei doesn't give a single shame about anyone in KL, so Dany going on a rampage and killing them all isn't consequences for anyone, the people who have wronged her are in fact made to look good rather than bad, she becomes the tyrant Cersei was lying about. Its the complete opposite of revenge, its nonsensical. Dany has shown many times she knows the citizens of KL are poor and innocent people, she doesn't equate them to slave masters at all. In the end Cersei just gets unsatisfyingly crushed by a ceiling which is hardly revenge at all.

In the past Dany has lost many people she loved and gone through a lot of shame (Khal Drogo and the khallesar, her unborn child, her friend betraying her in Qarth, her dragons being stolen, Jorah betraying her and having to exile him, Ser Barristan dying, her betrothed in Mereen, her dragon and most of her allies last season etc.), but through it all she stayed strong and believed in herself, this turn in the space of two episodes is complete rubbish, not something Dany would ever do. If you're going to turn her into a genocidal psycho it needs way more build up.

What do you mean by "that's classic game of thrones"? Did you not understand what I was saying? I said character archs have been butchered and characters are useless now, they're dumb and repeating the same cliche lines, making shame jokes. This is nothing to do with plot armour, and its the complete opposite of "classic game of thrones" which was a character driven story where everything made sense and every character was written intelligently.

I'm glad you brought up plot armour though, because you're right people in GOT aren't supposed to have it yet it was all over the place this episode once again. Those ballistas brought down Rhaegal with 3 perfect shots last episode but not a single hit landed on Drogon since then? Arya got crushed by how many buildings, got caught right next to dragonfire how many times and still survived? Everyone that died was exactly expected to, plot armour is rampant in GOT now. At least this episode was nowhere near as bad as episode 3 for plot armour.

Dr. Pezus

May 14, 2019, 12:32 PM Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 01:02 PM by Dr. Pezus


Completely agree with the first minutes



The fudge was Arya thinking when she dragged that family with her lol. The mother got immediately killed by dothraki

Legend

She put up ~150 masters for crucifixion after they crucified that many children, its one of Dany's darkest moves but it was still only targeted at the people who deserved it. And again with the execution, her strategy has always been to send public messages by targeting and singling out only those who are at fault. Just like last season when she asked the Tarlys to bend the knee and they refused, she burned them but nobody else.

She's seen that people despise her but Dany has always believed in herself and known people will love her when she gets the chance to prove her worth. She's come to save them from tyrants, from people like cersei who blew up the sept and killed thousands of innocents. She repeatedly refrained from attacking KL with dragons because she said herself "I'm not here to be Queen of the ashes". She was mad and wanted revenge after what cersei and euron did last two episodes and rightly so, but she sank euron's fleet and cersei's army surrendered, she'd won and her revenge was there. All she had to do was wait for Jon to take the red keep and then she could get revenge on Cersei in any way she wanted.

That's just plain wrong, "she doesn't want them to avoid consequences that easily" of course, so she should go and find Cersei and make sure she brutally kills her and gives her what she deserves. Cersei doesn't give a single shame about anyone in KL, so Dany going on a rampage and killing them all isn't consequences for anyone, the people who have wronged her are in fact made to look good rather than bad, she becomes the tyrant Cersei was lying about. Its the complete opposite of revenge, its nonsensical. Dany has shown many times she knows the citizens of KL are poor and innocent people, she doesn't equate them to slave masters at all. In the end Cersei just gets unsatisfyingly crushed by a ceiling which is hardly revenge at all.

In the past Dany has lost many people she loved and gone through a lot of shame (Khal Drogo and the khallesar, her unborn child, her friend betraying her in Qarth, her dragons being stolen, Jorah betraying her and having to exile him, Ser Barristan dying, her betrothed in Mereen, her dragon and most of her allies last season etc.), but through it all she stayed strong and believed in herself, this turn in the space of two episodes is complete rubbish, not something Dany would ever do. If you're going to turn her into a genocidal psycho it needs way more build up.

What do you mean by "that's classic game of thrones"? Did you not understand what I was saying? I said character archs have been butchered and characters are useless now, they're dumb and repeating the same cliche lines, making shame jokes. This is nothing to do with plot armour, and its the complete opposite of "classic game of thrones" which was a character driven story where everything made sense and every character was written intelligently.

I'm glad you brought up plot armour though, because you're right people in GOT aren't supposed to have it yet it was all over the place this episode once again. Those ballistas brought down Rhaegal with 3 perfect shots last episode but not a single hit landed on Drogon since then? Arya got crushed by how many buildings, got caught right next to dragonfire how many times and still survived? Everyone that died was exactly expected to, plot armour is rampant in GOT now. At least this episode was nowhere near as bad as episode 3 for plot armour.
I think you need to rewatch the series because her actions come across a bit different in hindsight.

The show directly stated multiple times that she did these horrible actions to people that did not deserve it. She kills and punishes random masters that are guilty by association only. The Tarlys were not at fault since they had surrendered. She burnt them for not bending the knee, for not aligning with her views of how the world should be. In Essos this is mostly about slavery so it feels justified but in Westeros this is just about her right to sit on the throne.

"Dany has always believed in herself and known people will love her when she gets the chance to prove her worth." No? She has always felt entitled to the throne and lashed out at people that didn't agree. I specifically gave an example of her losing her people's love after she had already proven her worth.

That's just plain wrong, "she doesn't want them to avoid consequences that easily" of course, so she should go and find Cersei and make sure she brutally kills her and gives her what she deserves. Cersei doesn't give a single shame about anyone in KL, so Dany going on a rampage and killing them all isn't consequences for anyone, the people who have wronged her are in fact made to look good rather than bad, she becomes the tyrant Cersei was lying about. Its the complete opposite of revenge, its nonsensical. Dany has shown many times she knows the citizens of KL are poor and innocent people, she doesn't equate them to slave masters at all. In the end Cersei just gets unsatisfyingly crushed by a ceiling which is hardly revenge at all.
Have you never played a war game and not accepted a piece offer? Revenge applies to everyone in Kings Landing, not just Cersei.


I fully understand why people who don't believe the mad queen story works would hate this episode (and I do find it kinda funny that we basically swapped roles compared to our episode 2 discussion) but can you see that it's a great episode if you do accept that as valid? I meant classic GoT in the sense of things not going the way viewers expect, but you can also describe it as classic GoT from the negative perspective too haha.





Xevross

May 14, 2019, 03:52 PM Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 03:54 PM by Xevross
I think you need to rewatch the series because her actions come across a bit different in hindsight.

The show directly stated multiple times that she did these horrible actions to people that did not deserve it. She kills and punishes random masters that are guilty by association only. The Tarlys were not at fault since they had surrendered. She burnt them for not bending the knee, for not aligning with her views of how the world should be. In Essos this is mostly about slavery so it feels justified but in Westeros this is just about her right to sit on the throne.

"Dany has always believed in herself and known people will love her when she gets the chance to prove her worth." No? She has always felt entitled to the throne and lashed out at people that didn't agree. I specifically gave an example of her losing her people's love after she had already proven her worth.
Have you never played a war game and not accepted a piece offer? Revenge applies to everyone in Kings Landing, not just Cersei.


I fully understand why people who don't believe the mad queen story works would hate this episode (and I do find it kinda funny that we basically swapped roles compared to our episode 2 discussion) but can you see that it's a great episode if you do accept that as valid? I meant classic GoT in the sense of things not going the way viewers expect, but you can also describe it as classic GoT from the negative perspective too haha.

I rewatched the series 2 times in the last year and most recently within the last few months. I think I'm good.

The masters was bad yes, but she got convinced about the problems of her actions and learned from it, also the masters were still slave owners and Dany clearly had a problem with slave owners. She never hurt anyone she didn't have a problem with.

The Tarlys surrendered yes so she gave them the option to bend the knee instead of just killing them and she still spared the rest of the Lannister troops. She always felt entitled to the throne yes but that doesn't mean she can't also believe in herself and her ability to get people to love her. She even made a few speeches about her faith in herself, and people like Missandei talk about how they follow her because of her actions and all the good things she's done.

Why are you equating this to a game? In a game you can fudge around and do shame like that but this is supposed to be perfectly believable characters, not characters that dop
 random shame.

Sure its a good episode, but things that happened made me angry and I never felt emotionally invested because the build up to it was so poor, and the execution of many of the big moments was poor as well.

And nah that image is battleship, people twisting words and taking shame out of context. Main characters always occasionally survived something they maye shouldn't have, but it was very rare and such a close call changed their characters, now its just people almost dying and surviving for the hell of it with absolutely no consequences.

Tyrion made lollipop jokes before but they were actually good and part of a story like in that scene pictured, he was also extremely witty and made jokes and subtle jabs all the time, made incredible speeches and had so many intelligent scenes and clashes with people like Cersei. The sucker joke at the start of season 8 is barely even a joke, its awful.

I have literally no idea why those deaths are pictured as if someone is trying to say "anticlimactic"? Drogo's death was a huge deal for Dany's story and it was emotionally traumatic for her to go through, she had to suffocate him to death and it was an incredibly moving scene. Don't even know what to say about Joffrey, everyone agrees it was one of the best and most satisfying character deaths of all time, and the scene was huge and extremely dramatic. It was incredibly well done. And Renly wasn't a huge deal but it was still a big emotional moment for Brienne and it had consequences for the story and so many characters.

I'm not even gonna bother with that third picture, if someone's trying to make a serious claim like that they're either being purposely obtuse or are extremely dumb.

And the last one isn't even a prophecy its just a standard dothraki procedure that every Khaleesi goes through? Compare that to Azor Ahai and the like which was built up for many seasons and foreshadowed, but its not even the prophecy I care about its the fact that the NK was built up with so much screen time for almost nothing.

And yeah the roles have turned, because I love this show and I'm a huge fan and I don't just treat it like a dumb blockbuster to turn off my brain to.

the-pi-guy

Clearly words won't stop this fight.  

*Hands swords*

Hop to it gents.  

Xevross

Clearly words won't stop this fight.  

*Hands swords*

Hop to it gents.  
:o

It ain't a fight though, just discussing differing opinions on a topic :D

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