PlayStation Community Thread

Started by Dr. Pezus, May 03, 2014, 03:25 PM

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darkknightkryta

That's not how shaders really work...

Sure they can control the art style in some ways but that's an artistic thing mostly and not a tech thing.

Also where did you read that U4 used the same graphics tech as U3? Or what are you meaning?
Light moves itself over materials differently. Uncharted 2 was probably tthe only game at the time to get it right. By right I mean try to actually do it properly.  There should be some slides on how they were trying to do nvidia's head demo at the time in real time.  The more accurate you shade materials the more realistic it looks. This is actually the reason why I think The Order "looks" better than Uncharted 4.  The Order had insane shading for materials. Uncharted 4 just looks like they took the work with Uncharted 2 and 3 but just improved upon it. It's why, even with the increase in geometry, textures and lighting, the game still has that "look". The Last of Us looks like they completely changed their shading code to something a lot better. It's why I was suspecting they got something close to that voxel cone lighting/shading that no one on console really got working.

Legend

Light moves itself over materials differently. Uncharted 2 was probably tthe only game at the time to get it right. By right I mean try to actually do it properly.  There should be some slides on how they were trying to do nvidia's head demo at the time in real time.  The more accurate you shade materials the more realistic it looks. This is actually the reason why I think The Order "looks" better than Uncharted 4.  The Order had insane shading for materials. Uncharted 4 just looks like they took the work with Uncharted 2 and 3 but just improved upon it. It's why, even with the increase in geometry, textures and lighting, the game still has that "look". The Last of Us looks like they completely changed their shading code to something a lot better. It's why I was suspecting they got something close to that voxel cone lighting/shading that no one on console really got working.
We're kinda talking about different things, but first off Uncharted 4 was definitely a step up from Uncharted 3. It was their first game using a physically based renderer and definitely didn't use the same lighting model as Uncharted 3.

What I'm meaning and what Naughty Dog has stated is that from an artistic point of view, Uncharted is supposed to be slightly stylized. It's not a side effect off their renderer.

Dr. Pezus

We're kinda talking about different things, but first off Uncharted 4 was definitely a step up from Uncharted 3. It was their first game using a physically based renderer and definitely didn't use the same lighting model as Uncharted 3.

What I'm meaning and what Naughty Dog has stated is that from an artistic point of view, Uncharted is supposed to be slightly stylized. It's not a side effect off their renderer.

Indeed. Tlou1 has a more realistic look than uncharted in general. Not due to tech lulz

darkknightkryta

Indeed. Tlou1 has a more realistic look than uncharted in general. Not due to tech lulz
Look carefully at Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us,  The shading is the same.  Lighting isn't, but the shading is, giving the matrtials the same look.
We're kinda talking about different things, but first off Uncharted 4 was definitely a step up from Uncharted 3. It was their first game using a physically based renderer and definitely didn't use the same lighting model as Uncharted 3.

What I'm meaning and what Naughty Dog has stated is that from an artistic point of view, Uncharted is supposed to be slightly stylized. It's not a side effect off their renderer.

And I'm telling you that it has that look because of their shading algorithms.  The way skin is shaded is a result of them trying to get that nvidia head tech done in real time in a game.  They had to make sacrifices and you're left with what you see.  They then shaded all materials regardless of it being accurate or not.  That's all in their GDC (I think) slides when they were explaining the tech in Uncharted 2.  It's literally why Uncharted 2 and 3 have that look (Even The Last of Us).  I don't think they did a good job in updating their shaders in Uncharted 4 to be honest (God of War and Horizon blow it out of the water), they just made other enhancements under the hood.  The Last of Us 2 looks like they finally updated their material shaders to be more accurate.

Legend

Aug 27, 2018, 03:01 AM Last Edit: Aug 27, 2018, 03:07 AM by Legend
Look carefully at Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us,  The shading is the same.  Lighting isn't, but the shading is, giving the matrtials the same look.And I'm telling you that it has that look because of their shading algorithms.  The way skin is shaded is a result of them trying to get that nvidia head tech done in real time in a game.  They had to make sacrifices and you're left with what you see.  They then shaded all materials regardless of it being accurate or not.  That's all in their GDC (I think) slides when they were explaining the tech in Uncharted 2.  It's literally why Uncharted 2 and 3 have that look (Even The Last of Us).  I don't think they did a good job in updating their shaders in Uncharted 4 to be honest (God of War and Horizon blow it out of the water), they just made other enhancements under the hood.  The Last of Us 2 looks like they finally updated their material shaders to be more accurate.
I've written my fair share of shaders and you're not really making sense to me. Do you have specific technical things you can point out?

ND did a ton of tech talks about Uncharted 4 and it's ridiculous to read/watch those and still think they didn't use new shaders for the game, unless you have a strong source saying otherwise. They certainly can be improved and have been for TLOU2, but the gap between TLOU and Uncharted 4 is larger than the gap between Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 in terms of how advanced the shaders are.

darkknightkryta

I've written my fair share of shaders and you're not really making sense to me. Do you have specific technical things you can point out?

ND did a ton of tech talks about Uncharted 4 and it's ridiculous to read/watch those and still think they didn't use new shaders for the game, unless you have a strong source saying otherwise. They certainly can be improved and have been for TLOU2, but the gap between TLOU and Uncharted 4 is larger than the gap between Uncharted 4 and TLOU2 in terms of how advanced the shaders are.

I didn't say they didn't update their shaders, I'm saying they didn't really improve upon them much compared to the work they did with the lighting.  

I'm referring to these slides:

http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2010/Hable-Uncharted2(SIGGRAPH%202010%20Advanced%20RealTime%20Rendering%20Course).pdf

Uncharted 2 and 3 looks the way it does based on the work they did in getting skinning right.  Or as right as they could at the time.  I'm saying, just by looking at how Uncharted 4 turned out, they didn't really improve shading for materials/skin much.

The Last of Us 2 looks like they're ray tracing.  Which is why I'm guessing they're close to that voxel cone lighting/shading that Epic has on PC and Capcom never got working in Deep Down (I'm assuming Deep Down disappearing is because the tech never worked).

Legend

I didn't say they didn't update their shaders, I'm saying they didn't really improve upon them much compared to the work they did with the lighting.  

I'm referring to these slides:

http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2010/Hable-Uncharted2(SIGGRAPH%202010%20Advanced%20RealTime%20Rendering%20Course).pdf

Uncharted 2 and 3 looks the way it does based on the work they did in getting skinning right.  Or as right as they could at the time.  I'm saying, just by looking at how Uncharted 4 turned out, they didn't really improve shading for materials/skin much.

The Last of Us 2 looks like they're ray tracing.  Which is why I'm guessing they're close to that voxel cone lighting/shading that Epic has on PC and Capcom never got working in Deep Down (I'm assuming Deep Down disappearing is because the tech never worked).
That's just subsurface scattering. It's only one element of shading and almost every game nowadays a similar implementation or something better. It's a reason U2 and U3 looked so good, but it's not the reason they had their specific art style.

Uncharted 4 had its own new subsurface scattering method for hair, clothes, and environments. I haven't seen a presentation detailing their specific subsurface scattering method for skin but at the very least you can see in screenshots that they added additional methods to the shader, such as translucency.

Image result for uncharted 4 subsurface scattering

With voxel cone lighting, you're now talking about the lighting model itself right? U4 had some incredible lighting going on and I'd be shocked if TLOU2 didn't push the bar even farther.

Legend


the-pi-guy

Even Amnesics Dream of Tetris | Science | AAAS

This was mentioned in the Tetris Effect Announce Trailer.

darkknightkryta

That's just subsurface scattering. It's only one element of shading and almost every game nowadays a similar implementation or something better. It's a reason U2 and U3 looked so good, but it's not the reason they had their specific art style.

Uncharted 4 had its own new subsurface scattering method for hair, clothes, and environments. I haven't seen a presentation detailing their specific subsurface scattering method for skin but at the very least you can see in screenshots that they added additional methods to the shader, such as translucency.

Image result for uncharted 4 subsurface scattering

With voxel cone lighting, you're now talking about the lighting model itself right? U4 had some incredible lighting going on and I'd be shocked if TLOU2 didn't push the bar even farther.
Not so much the sub surface scattering, but the scattering in general.  Not just skinning.  Since they did "anything" as they put it, for materials.  If they brought the rest of their materials up to stuff (ala The Order), then you're going to see a huge jump, even if you don't touch the textures or geometry on the models.  When I'm talking about the voxel cone rendering, I noticed a peculiar way of shading in demos.  Plus the quality of the light itself.  Ucharted 4's lighting looks amazing WTFBBQ good but it still looks like Uncahrted 3's lighting, but on steroids.  That image you posted illustrates that.  There's this "warmness" in the way light fills an area.  The Last of Us kind 2 kind of loses that, but replaces it with something truly next gen.  Like to me, Uncharted 4 looks like what they'd be able to do on their PS3 render farm.  The Last of Us 2 looks "next gen".  In my opinion anyways.

Legend

Even Amnesics Dream of Tetris | Science | AAAS

This was mentioned in the Tetris Effect Announce Trailer.
I really loved how The Witness explored a similar concept. After finishing the game, you just couldn't help but see examples of the puzzles out in the real world.

Kinda cool that it's not a memory that's causing it. That could be really scary for a person like that. All of a sudden they'd start seeing shapes and not understand why.
Not so much the sub surface scattering, but the scattering in general.  Not just skinning.  Since they did "anything" as they put it, for materials.  If they brought the rest of their materials up to stuff (ala The Order), then you're going to see a huge jump, even if you don't touch the textures or geometry on the models.  When I'm talking about the voxel cone rendering, I noticed a peculiar way of shading in demos.  Plus the quality of the light itself.  Ucharted 4's lighting looks amazing WTFBBQ good but it still looks like Uncahrted 3's lighting, but on steroids.  That image you posted illustrates that.  There's this "warmness" in the way light fills an area.  The Last of Us kind 2 kind of loses that, but replaces it with something truly next gen.  Like to me, Uncharted 4 looks like what they'd be able to do on their PS3 render farm.  The Last of Us 2 looks "next gen".  In my opinion anyways.
Uncharted 4 had new shaders and even used some techniques from The Order. I wouldn't argue that Uncharted 4 looked better than The Order, but I am saying that it's wrong to lump Uncharted 4 in with Uncharted 2/3 and say they only did minor upgrades to their shaders (and it's wrong to say that that is the reason that Uncharted 4 has a more artistic look than TLOU2). The anything they talked about in your slides was because this was back before most games even attempted to simulate any of these extra effects. For Uncharted 4 they switched to a PBR approach and had to use newer techniques.

Yeah proper indirect lighting can really make a scene shine. Like in the screenshot of Drake the blue filing cabinet should be pushing a blue tint into that area and the scene would have Drake's face feel less flat since it'd be getting different lighting compared to the wall behind him. Also you'd get much better looking ambient occlusion.



TLOU2 looks to have a standard lighting system though, as shown most clearly in this screenshot. The fire on the left has been simplified to a point light a few feet off the ground. It's giving off relatively crisp shadows and made a bright specular spot on the concrete wall.

Dr. Pezus



Kerotan

Globalfoundries stops 7nm development + Intel delay 10nm to 2020 | ResetEra

 
Quote
AMD had plans with Globalfoundries and designed certain stuff around Globalfoundries 7nm tech which is not identical to TSMC tech but they have already announced moving everything to TSMC now, Globalfoundries will not develop 7nm at all now

 Intel delayed ice lake 10nm to 2020 now too

(​IMG)

 7nm will properly be expensive for a while (might effect next gen consoles+PC cpu/gpu prices) since TSMC got a monopoly now and too much demand specially from mobile chips (apple etc)


 Sources
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7nm-development
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-roadmap-cooper_lake-ice_lake,37574.html  

darkknightkryta

Globalfoundries stops 7nm development + Intel delay 10nm to 2020 | ResetEra

 
I honestly don't remember which company it was, but didn't Globalfoundries buy out shares of AMD to keep them afloat, and in exchange they had to use Globalfoundries for manufacturing?

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