VizionEck

Gaming => Game News Discussion => VizionEck Dev Blog => Topic started by: Legend on May 01, 2016, 02:41 AM

Title: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 01, 2016, 02:41 AM
I'd like some honest feedback if you have some time. The more detailed your response the better. You can talk about everything ranging from your first impressions to your thoughts on them affecting long term gameplay. You can talk about how you feel personally and how you think the mass market feels about them.

Please answer before scrolling down and seeing how other people view them.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 01, 2016, 02:41 AM
If you are reading this, you better have already responded!

Back in summer 2013 VizionEck was a completely different game than it is now. It was envisioned as a free demo project I could finish in a month. The art style was invented/used because it made development super easy. However the game quickly morphed into a different beast and its scope increased 100 fold. 3 years later I've upgraded every aspect of the game except graphics.

The single player campaign called VizionEck Adventure is very much built around this art style, but the multiplayer called VizionEck Battle is only using it out of habit. Plus a long time ago I added "Game Skins" to the mix. These use procedural generation to completely overhaul the game's graphics and artstyle making it unrecognizably different. My dilemma is this:

Should VizionEck Battle stay as is where "Outlines" are the default graphics and game skins are just fun unlocks, or should Battle be stripped of "outline" based game mechanics and advertised primarily with game skins?

I'm heavily leaning towards the later atm, but this is a decision I can sit on till it's time for the next trailer. For the moment just hearing your feedback on the current graphics is super beneficial.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: kitler53 on May 01, 2016, 03:01 AM
they look lazy and cheap aka "super easy development". 
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: the-pi-guy on May 01, 2016, 03:09 AM
It has a unique art style.  Which I think is pretty off putting for a lot of people.  You don't play as an animal/person, you play as a cube.  Which could be odd in a world of Uncharted/Call of Duty/etc. for a lot of people.  There's still plenty of games that are in a similar type of category, but a lot of them are either older or mobile.  It goes much further than say Minecraft in that respect.  
The biggest thing though is that the market that would probably enjoy the graphics doesn't know about the game, while the market that knows about it doesn't enjoy the graphics.  Look at Call of Duty, Minecraft, Tetris, Farmville, etc.  All of them have very different visual styles, very different markets, but still hugely successful.  

I personally enjoy the style.  I'm a little curious how it will actually feel while playing.  But I am excited. (I am probably like the 5th most excited for this game.)

they look lazy and cheap aka "super easy development".
And that's okay.  It doesn't necessarily hurt VizionEck's potential for sales.  Minecraft would be a big example of that (and yes I am 100% aware that no indie games are Minecraft, except for Minecraft).  But still, the style of the game hasn't affected the game.  It's seen crazy success by marketing and gameplay.    

Should VizionEck Battle stay as is where "Outlines" are the default graphics and game skins are just fun unlocks, or should Battle be stripped of "outline" based game mechanics and advertised primarily with game skins?

I'm heavily leaning towards the later atm, but this is a decision I can sit on till it's time for the next trailer. For the moment just hearing your feedback on the current graphics is super beneficial.
I think you should have a couple of game skins available with more unlockable.  
That way, there's still the fun of unlocking stuff but also the flexibility to change what the game looks like.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: darkknightkryta on May 01, 2016, 05:39 AM
I don't know.  If the game plays well you might be able to go for an 80s theme.  Since that wireframe look was the style at the time.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Xbro on May 01, 2016, 06:44 AM
I personally like it, but I think it will be hard to market to the masses.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Max King of the Wild on May 01, 2016, 11:56 AM
I didn't listen to one suggestion in this post. Read all the comments from bottom up then read the opening post.

My issue is not seeing enough gameplay to form an opinion on graphics or side by side comparisons to make a determination
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 01, 2016, 04:58 PM
they look lazy and cheap aka "super easy development".
I can always count on you for blunt feedback  ;D

It has a unique art style.  Which I think is pretty off putting for a lot of people.  You don't play as an animal/person, you play as a cube.  Which could be odd in a world of Uncharted/Call of Duty/etc. for a lot of people.  There's still plenty of games that are in a similar type of category, but a lot of them are either older or mobile.  It goes much further than say Minecraft in that respect.  
The biggest thing though is that the market that would probably enjoy the graphics doesn't know about the game, while the market that knows about it doesn't enjoy the graphics.  Look at Call of Duty, Minecraft, Tetris, Farmville, etc.  All of them have very different visual styles, very different markets, but still hugely successful.  

I personally enjoy the style.  I'm a little curious how it will actually feel while playing.  But I am excited. (I am probably like the 5th most excited for this game.)
I've had long discussions about the fact you don't play as an animal/person.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Thomas_was_alone_screenshot.png)
Thomas Was Alone also uses solid geometric objects but you don't play as a rectangle, you play as Thomas. He's personified through dialogue, mechanics, and even visuals. I absolutely loved the game because of it and most critics seem to agree. If Thomas Was Alone lacked "characters," no one would have cared about it.

(http://i1.theportalwiki.net/img/thumb/3/34/Portal_Companion_Cube.png/175px-Portal_Companion_Cube.png)

The portal companion cube does nothing, yet it's pink heart and associated gameplay make it lovable and relatable. There are hundreds of near identical cubes in the series yet this one is famous throughout the internet.

In VizionEck Battle there is nothing more than a black and white cube. Lore says their remote controlled robots called Rangers, but not a single player will care with the current graphics. Part of me thinks it'd be wise to personify the cubes and make them characters.


While playing it feels much better. Your brain pretty quickly learns and understands the geometry.

And that's okay.  It doesn't necessarily hurt VizionEck's potential for sales.  Minecraft would be a big example of that (and yes I am 100% aware that no indie games are Minecraft, except for Minecraft).  But still, the style of the game hasn't affected the game.  It's seen crazy success by marketing and gameplay.
I think the graphics helped Minecraft. They really match the feel of the gameplay.


I think you should have a couple of game skins available with more unlockable.  
That way, there's still the fun of unlocking stuff but also the flexibility to change what the game looks like.
That'll be the case either way. It's more about what game skin is the default one when you first boot up the game.

I don't know.  If the game plays well you might be able to go for an 80s theme.  Since that wireframe look was the style at the time.
I'm thinking about fully changing the graphics, not just improving/altering the outline look. Could make the game look like whatever I want.

I personally like it, but I think it will be hard to market to the masses.
That's exactly how I feel too!

I didn't listen to one suggestion in this post. Read all the comments from bottom up then read the opening post.

My issue is not seeing enough gameplay to form an opinion on graphics or side by side comparisons to make a determination
Such a rebel.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Cute Pikachu on May 01, 2016, 05:03 PM
Its gonna need a little touching up if its gonna be marketed to the masses
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: the-pi-guy on May 01, 2016, 05:42 PM
That'll be the case either way. It's more about what game skin is the default one when you first boot up the game.
Maybe on startup, you could have players pick a visual style when they start the game.  
Have a little menu when you are creating a new game, and have like 3 or 4 skins; and let the player decide the default skin.  

While playing it feels much better. Your brain pretty quickly learns and understands the geometry.
I believe it.  
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: kitler53 on May 01, 2016, 08:13 PM
yes yes, i am blunt.  but here is some more honest truth,.. on the psblog (which was/will be your biggest marketing exposure) i make a decison about an article in ~5 seconds a lot of the time.  

first i look for screens.  then i watch the video if i have one.  and then i read the article only if i feel like i might be interested.  

graphics is for better or worse are a huge part of my decision. there is a saying that when you are buying a used car if you want to know what shape the engine is in check the car mats.  basically if the owner didn't take care of the mats they probably didn't take care of the engine. 

with hundreds of indies to choose from i make a similar judgement. if they didn't do a decent job with the presentation they probably are no better at the gameplay. 

vizioneck looks low effort on the presentation.  maybe things are better now but even worse than the cubes was the dead explosions from that first trailer.  maybe you've put tons of time into the gameplay and content but my immediate thought when i saw your trailer is it looks low quality. 

now i "know" you so i'll put more effort into learning about your game than someone elses.  hell, i might buy it just so i can join the inevitable conversations we'll have here.  ...but for the vast majority of people you've got 5 seconds to grab their interest and your presentation isn't helping. 
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: kitler53 on May 02, 2016, 03:28 PM
so what's your plan?
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: ethomaz on May 02, 2016, 03:33 PM
I appreciate graphics and I expect the best from devs but I appreciate art style too. To be fair in low budget games (aka non-AAA) I expect a good art style with avg. graphics.

That is enough for me.

The exceptions are if the gameplay is so good to play... in this case I don't give a shame about graphics to play the game (I will still notice the bad graphics and complain about but I will support, play and recommend to friends).
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 02, 2016, 04:13 PM
so what's your plan?
I'm looking into ways to reimagine the current art style. The "outline" graphics are very unique and will work much better for marketing recognition than the standard low poly indie graphics that are all the rage.

Current thinking is to add a thick coat of gloss over everything and make the outlines glow. Make it feel like a physical world with weight and scale. Right now I'm rendering test images to see what feels right, ie:

(http://i.imgur.com/QNMJbx3.png)


Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: darkknightkryta on May 02, 2016, 04:46 PM
Maybe play as block people instead of blocks?
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: the-pi-guy on May 02, 2016, 04:48 PM
Maybe play as block people instead of blocks?
I refuse.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 02, 2016, 04:56 PM
Maybe play as block people instead of blocks?
The politically correct term is cubanoids.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: kitler53 on May 02, 2016, 04:59 PM
looks nicer imo.

did you get what i was saying about death explosions?

    @0:30.  @2:47.

i showed the trailer to a friend a while back and i think the exact quote i got when the death explosion happened was "what the fudge is this shame".

The politically correct term is cubanoids.
they're cuban?
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 02, 2016, 05:23 PM
looks nicer imo.

did you get what i was saying about death explosions?


i showed the trailer to a friend a while back and i think the exact quote i got when the death explosion happened was "what the fudge is this shame".
they're cuban?
A lot of that yuckiness came from video compression. I mean they looked bad in real life too, but not that bad.

Those explosion effects were stupid and temporary though. The real ones at the time should have looked like the light flashes from the first teaser.

(http://i.imgur.com/3CdFNsr.png)

Not sure how they'll be in the final game. Depends a lot on what feels good too. If visually it looks great but during gameplay the attack feels "soft" then that's bad.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: MrsApplepie on May 02, 2016, 05:45 PM
VizionEck's graphics are very unique to other sites and the uniqueness is what I think draws a lot of people in. The graphics are basic but work for the module because of the nature of this site as a forum. For the game though, it is less attractive because it may be a little too basic and not incorporate enough mainstream and 3D emphasis. However, for this site I think it works and looks professional.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 03, 2016, 05:59 AM
I think I've narrowed down a look. Here's the current and new art styles back to back in color/white environments.

(http://i.imgur.com/uWMRHqf.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/NDU8r3G.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/k14NTcq.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/rUCl0i9.png)

Still needs a little more work on the outlines themselves to make them look more physical, but I really like the general feel.




*These are pre rendered concept art images, not screenshots.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: darkknightkryta on May 03, 2016, 11:33 AM
I think I've narrowed down a look. Here's the current and new art styles back to back in color/white environments.

(http://i.imgur.com/uWMRHqf.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/NDU8r3G.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/k14NTcq.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/rUCl0i9.png)

Still needs a little more work on the outlines themselves to make them look more physical, but I really like the general feel.




*These are pre rendered concept art images, not screenshots.
The reflections are a lot better.  I still say you should play as cubanoids, but with the ability to morph into a cube for hiding.  Kinda like the box mechanic in MGS 4: Online.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: kitler53 on May 03, 2016, 02:12 PM
visually looks way better.

Question,..  do you snap into that grid you are now displaying?  if the gameplay hinges on you to hiding in plain site as a block than sitting off in a position not exactly snapped into the grid will make it very obvious you are a player not a part of the level design.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: darkknightkryta on May 03, 2016, 02:53 PM
Now that I think about it some more, if you play as a cubanoid and can morph, you can add the morph ball mechanic from Metroid and cube through holes in the wall.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 03, 2016, 03:08 PM
The reflections are a lot better.  I still say you should play as cubanoids, but with the ability to morph into a cube for hiding.  Kinda like the box mechanic in MGS 4: Online.
I think the cubes do need something, but gameplay wise they need to stay this shape. Lore wise they're AI controlled robots so maybe I can work from that angle.

Maybe have the cubes take physical damage instead of just their brightness decreasing.



visually looks way better.

Question,..  do you snap into that grid you are now displaying?  if the gameplay hinges on you to hiding in plain site as a block than sitting off in a position not exactly snapped into the grid will make it very obvious you are a player not a part of the level design.
Hiding in plain site is only at specefic locations where you replace the level geometry. In these places you snap to position.

If you're just sitting motionless on the floor it's very obvious.


The other graphics dependent mechanic is ghosting. Brightness decreases with health, so near death players are very hard to see against the black walls.

However I've been having issues with this one for ages. It depends too much on TV brightness and other mechanics don't mesh with it. These new graphics would make ghosting impossible but I'm on the verge of cutting it anyway.

Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Mmm_fish_tacos on May 03, 2016, 03:51 PM
Can I see the new style of white an black, but reversed.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Legend on May 03, 2016, 04:14 PM
Can I see the new style of white an black, but reversed.
Does not look good in the slightest. Without redesigning it, this is the best I could produce.

(http://i.imgur.com/TjLuhbS.png)
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: Mmm_fish_tacos on May 03, 2016, 04:15 PM
Does not look good in the slightest. Without redesigning it, this is the best I could produce.

(http://i.imgur.com/TjLuhbS.png)

Yeah, that's not what I had in my head.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: the-pi-guy on May 03, 2016, 04:25 PM
Feel like it is missing something.  Just something that could make it really cool looking.
Title: Re: What are your thoughts on VizionEck's graphics?
Post by: the-pi-guy on May 03, 2016, 06:07 PM
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7279/26796822765_6ad7b87bae_h.jpg)